Hi
just a hopefully useful observation for Receptor owners.
I have had times when the Receptor "hangs", and no midi is received over USB.
Most likely it happns if there is a surge / spike on the power AC line. You can turn on and off the controller, or unplug--> plug the USB - still hangs. (Latest with a Novation keyboard)
To troubleshoot, I have in those cases wired an additional 5-pin din midicable from the controller to Receptor, and Receptor starts receiving midi again (and make sounds). So obviously, it is a hickup in the USB circuits / drivers / sw implementation.
So, to "make life safe" I started to wire both USB and Midi from the controller midi chain. In the stress of things trying different setups , I started sometimes to experience a strange phasing effect on sounds, especially piano sounds. It drove me nuts...and I did not understand what was going on.
Until I unplugged the midi cable..only using USB. Aha - Receptor receives the same midi date only a few millisecs delayed from both interfaces.
Result: a very notisable phase shift, which is when you play the same cord or single note 5-10ms apart
Hope this can be of any help so no-one do the same mistake.
And that Muse get some time to water-proof the USB routines ( a keep alive function or something).
-Eystein
Do not use BOTH USB and midicable from the same chain!
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- KVRian
- 571 posts since 14 Oct, 2004 from UK
Thanks for the info.
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nathankingcole nathankingcole https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=107457
- KVRist
- 224 posts since 15 May, 2006
Thanks for the observation! I just rewired my setup and have been noticing some strange phase effects. I generally use a USB power hub to power several controllers, with a MIDI merge to actually receive the MIDI data for the Receptor. I must have one of the controllers sending data on both the USB and MIDI. I was going to troubleshoot the problem-you may have just saved me a chunk of time! Let's keep sharing the tips...
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 44 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
Yes, this is very important to understand. And to recognize!
Your case is typical, since we sometimes end up using USB as a powersource, and often use mergers as well. Forgetting that USB also transmits midi (I grew up with midi when it was released in the 80's - so I need to remind me-self of this)
The reason for this sound delay artifact is not so obvious at first hand- and I urge everyone to try a double-midi-wiring and listen! Once you hear what I mean, you will instantly recognize this trouble-sound the next time you end up midi wiring your controllers to the Receptor in a "forbidden" way. And thus cutting the troubleshooting time. (Aren't we stressed enough as it is just before the sound check...;-)
I never experienced the Receptor to hung using both interfaces, just the sound artifact.
-Eystein
Your case is typical, since we sometimes end up using USB as a powersource, and often use mergers as well. Forgetting that USB also transmits midi (I grew up with midi when it was released in the 80's - so I need to remind me-self of this)
The reason for this sound delay artifact is not so obvious at first hand- and I urge everyone to try a double-midi-wiring and listen! Once you hear what I mean, you will instantly recognize this trouble-sound the next time you end up midi wiring your controllers to the Receptor in a "forbidden" way. And thus cutting the troubleshooting time. (Aren't we stressed enough as it is just before the sound check...;-)
I never experienced the Receptor to hung using both interfaces, just the sound artifact.
-Eystein
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- KVRer
- 6 posts since 20 Feb, 2009
adeptio wrote: I have had times when the Receptor "hangs", and no midi is received over USB.
Most likely it happns if there is a surge / spike on the power AC line. You can turn on and off the controller, or unplug--> plug the USB - still hangs. (Latest with a Novation keyboard)
This is one of THE most frustrating issues I experience with the receptor! I have had this happen in the middle of a set and had to power off both the keyboard and the receptor, unplug the usb, and power everything on and cable up again to resolve. This is NOT reliable and "Rock Solid" behavior that Muse promises. This has occurred with multiple keyboards and controllers and now I ONLY used a standard midi cable which SUCKS when you have usb powered controllers.
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- KVRist
- 230 posts since 29 Jan, 2003
If it is a surge in AC as the op has suggested has anyone tried using a power conditioner to see if that helps? I know power conditioners can work wonders with hardware synths I have used in improving their reliability and stability.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 44 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
[quote="jeamsler"]If it is a surge in AC as the op has suggested has anyone tried using a power conditioner to see if that helps? I know power conditioners can work wonders with hardware synths I have used in improving their reliability and stability.[/quote]
I use a small passive power conditioner (net filter). Like any PC the Receptor will be suffering from bad transients on the AC side, very typical when you come to a place where you don't know the AC conditions. All you need is a bad fridge or other inductive electrical units, or bad dimmers around you.
The USB interface is NOT as sturdy as std. midi (5-pin), since the std. midi spec is based on using opto couplers providing an isolated current loop (thus avoiding electrical ground loops etc or transients). With USB you have a direct UNFILTERED (DA+AC) connection between the controllers and Receptor. And if you also use a simple AC power adapter as well for a midi controller (if USB power is not enough) - the Receptor may pick up a transient through the USB as well.
That's why std Midi 5-pin is superior to USB as far as transient protection and ground loops. USB may be convenient, but has this inferior design as data interface between electronic equipment. However, if only USB is used and not an additional AC adapter, there is less risk.
My problem occurred when the Leslie speaker was changing speed. I had bad transient suppressors in the amp. Such devices (varistors, RC net) should also be next to the motor terminals. The old Leslie design is not up to today's standards in the AC circuits, they use simple condenser as protectors. Likewise some old gitar amps. When I fixed the Leslie, the problem seemed to go away. But - to be safe - I use the 5-pin....
A transient can be made by any stage equipment that is switched on or off, if it has a defect AC filter. The receptor WILL be in the danger zone if it is hooked to the same AC supply (close is worse).
The fact that is may only be the USB that stops working, but the rest seems to be ok, may be a Linux / Receptor SW problem to the specific USB HW that is used. It may be a inferior USB driver, and the Receptor SW may not have a sufficient "keep alive" logic for the USB. Also, the there might be a problem creating a fix if the HW has a poor design (the USB chipset). However, most likely this can be fixed is Muse creates their own USB drivers from scratch.
Solution: Always use a good (expensive) AC Net filter unit for your rig. Remember that you use nothing but a modified PC as a VST hosts... did you ever experience a PC or Mac that suddenly stalls? Yeah...
I use a small passive power conditioner (net filter). Like any PC the Receptor will be suffering from bad transients on the AC side, very typical when you come to a place where you don't know the AC conditions. All you need is a bad fridge or other inductive electrical units, or bad dimmers around you.
The USB interface is NOT as sturdy as std. midi (5-pin), since the std. midi spec is based on using opto couplers providing an isolated current loop (thus avoiding electrical ground loops etc or transients). With USB you have a direct UNFILTERED (DA+AC) connection between the controllers and Receptor. And if you also use a simple AC power adapter as well for a midi controller (if USB power is not enough) - the Receptor may pick up a transient through the USB as well.
That's why std Midi 5-pin is superior to USB as far as transient protection and ground loops. USB may be convenient, but has this inferior design as data interface between electronic equipment. However, if only USB is used and not an additional AC adapter, there is less risk.
My problem occurred when the Leslie speaker was changing speed. I had bad transient suppressors in the amp. Such devices (varistors, RC net) should also be next to the motor terminals. The old Leslie design is not up to today's standards in the AC circuits, they use simple condenser as protectors. Likewise some old gitar amps. When I fixed the Leslie, the problem seemed to go away. But - to be safe - I use the 5-pin....
A transient can be made by any stage equipment that is switched on or off, if it has a defect AC filter. The receptor WILL be in the danger zone if it is hooked to the same AC supply (close is worse).
The fact that is may only be the USB that stops working, but the rest seems to be ok, may be a Linux / Receptor SW problem to the specific USB HW that is used. It may be a inferior USB driver, and the Receptor SW may not have a sufficient "keep alive" logic for the USB. Also, the there might be a problem creating a fix if the HW has a poor design (the USB chipset). However, most likely this can be fixed is Muse creates their own USB drivers from scratch.
Solution: Always use a good (expensive) AC Net filter unit for your rig. Remember that you use nothing but a modified PC as a VST hosts... did you ever experience a PC or Mac that suddenly stalls? Yeah...
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- KVRian
- 524 posts since 25 Aug, 2005
Pardon me if this has already been noted, I did not read the entirety of each post.
Seems to me this is simply doubled data, you are receiving each midi event at two ports and transmitting it down the line, the phasing is because two notes are playing at once, slightly delayed. Make sure the items you want to work with USB are set to different midi channels than those on the midi cable and it should be fine.
Seems to me this is simply doubled data, you are receiving each midi event at two ports and transmitting it down the line, the phasing is because two notes are playing at once, slightly delayed. Make sure the items you want to work with USB are set to different midi channels than those on the midi cable and it should be fine.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 44 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
"Make sure the items you want to work with USB are set to different midi channels than those on the midi cable and it should be fine"
is partly correct, but be careful not to confuse, the topic was this:
Don't use both USB and MIDI from the SAME controller (item). That is if the controller do not able you to separate which channel is transmitted via the USB port and which (others) are transmitted via the MIDI port. Most controllers send all channels on both interfaces unless you carefully have set it up otherwise. The problem is when one instrument in Receptor receives data via both the Midi and the USB port.
Two different controllers (items) can of course both use USB or both MIDI, or one with USB and the other with MIDI, using channels that overlap. However, if you start daisy chaining, be careful.
is partly correct, but be careful not to confuse, the topic was this:
Don't use both USB and MIDI from the SAME controller (item). That is if the controller do not able you to separate which channel is transmitted via the USB port and which (others) are transmitted via the MIDI port. Most controllers send all channels on both interfaces unless you carefully have set it up otherwise. The problem is when one instrument in Receptor receives data via both the Midi and the USB port.
Two different controllers (items) can of course both use USB or both MIDI, or one with USB and the other with MIDI, using channels that overlap. However, if you start daisy chaining, be careful.