Ferric TDS vs Nebula StuderA800 (R2R) vs UAD

[Tp3]

Not only this, your friend, Mr Kingston, said that tape was NOT meant to be hit hard

Then again,

That's not all I said. But I also understand your drive to argue for arguments sake - the KVR way.

Then again,

That's not all I said.

Might be that I misunderstood him also ?

If so, then this is the sign for me that a new Babylon tower is being build. so action is to be taken...

I was not being sarcastic, friend... and this IS the sign for me to give it a rest

[HunterKiller]

there was a thing discussed on 30 rock when tracy is doing a porno video sim.

one of the writers is saying how it can't be done because of the "uncanny chasm" where as a sim gets closer and closer to perfection its remaining flaws become more and more glaring.

hi cites the animation in "toy story" and tracy goes "ahhh i like it" and then in polar express and tracy goes "aggghhh im frightened make it stop".

i call this the 90% syndrome, once anything gets to 90% perfect the remaining flaws are exponentially harder to overcome and it drives you more and more crazy.

[Nighthawk77]

So, all Nebula can do at the moment is approximate the "sound", flavour and harmonic content of tape and it's overdrive. That's all.

Cheers!
bManic

Just because you have used tons of tape machines you can not safely state this unless you put down all the details. What tape brand were you using? How did you calibrate it (over or underbiased or exactly with accordance to YOUR tape brand's calibration tape?). What kind of inputs were there to your tape machine. Do the tape machine pre-amps/inputs distort before the tape does (this can happen!)? How were the inputs tuned.. safe or hot? There are just way too many variables to have an opinion on the accuracy of the UAD emulation based on your own experience of tape machines, unless you have heard the exact same machine together with the exact same brands of tape, that UAD used!

It always amazes me how people claim they have used tons of tape and know exactly how tape sounds.. it doesn't have a friggin universal "sound"!!! They all sound VERY different. Some are harsh and nasty as hell (bad machine+tape combo, shitty maintenance, etc), some are almost completely transparent even when compared to the direct digital source, some are "mush machines", some are transient tyrants, some are soft pillowy saturation boxes, some have aliasing-like in-harmonic crap all over the place and most are broken.
[/i]. That's all.

Cheers!
bManic

MMM, your point of view seems to contradict itself from post to post.

We all have different experiences, production styles and musical taste.
That's what is great about forums, you get to hear other folks point of view.

Also no one seems to think all analog tape has a "universal sound".
As you said in your prior post, these are all just "approximation's".
RELAX

[bmanic]

95%????????????????????????????

with all due respect, WTF are you talkin about? bmanic, seriously what makes you such an authority? WIth hyperbole like that you discredit any technical background you may have

Dude. Relax. It is MY OPINION. I haven't gone around touting myself as any kind of authority. I've specifically stated the exact conditions for my opinion (using tape as an effect as opposed to "fairy dust"/sound enhancement).

What is wrong with society today? People who can't read and get their panties in a twist for nothing.

Jesus.. chill man.

you and bmanic should get married.

Ive never read such moronic information in my life in a thread.

Wow.. how mature. No wonder threads go to pieces here on KvR. It's the Idiocrazy way. When you fail to express your own opinion and fail to realize that other people have one you get all locked up inside and go: "... you talk all fag and your shit stinks! Yeah! Yeah that's right!".

That movie is genious. We are really heading in that direction aren't we?

- bManic

[bmanic]

So, all Nebula can do at the moment is approximate the "sound", flavour and harmonic content of tape and it's overdrive. That's all.

Cheers!
bManic

Just because you have used tons of tape machines you can not safely state this unless you put down all the details. What tape brand were you using? How did you calibrate it (over or underbiased or exactly with accordance to YOUR tape brand's calibration tape?). What kind of inputs were there to your tape machine. Do the tape machine pre-amps/inputs distort before the tape does (this can happen!)? How were the inputs tuned.. safe or hot? There are just way too many variables to have an opinion on the accuracy of the UAD emulation based on your own experience of tape machines, unless you have heard the exact same machine together with the exact same brands of tape, that UAD used!

It always amazes me how people claim they have used tons of tape and know exactly how tape sounds.. it doesn't have a friggin universal "sound"!!! They all sound VERY different. Some are harsh and nasty as hell (bad machine+tape combo, shitty maintenance, etc), some are almost completely transparent even when compared to the direct digital source, some are "mush machines", some are transient tyrants, some are soft pillowy saturation boxes, some have aliasing-like in-harmonic crap all over the place and most are broken.
[/i]. That's all.

Cheers!
bManic

MMM, your point of view seems to contradict itself from post to post.

We all have different experiences, production styles and musical taste.
That's what is great about forums, you get to hear other folks point of view.

Also no one seems to think all analog tape has a "universal sound".
As you said in your prior post, these are all just "approximation's".
RELAX

Huh? Where do I contradict myself? I might have some trouble writing the correct words to form a clear and coherent text but I blame that on my lack of skills in the English language (or language in general.. my mother tongue doesn't help me much either ).

Both quotes you have here are complete irrelevant to one another. They addressed two completely different subjects. Why combine them?

I'll try to be clear:

1) My first quote addressed the status of Nebula and it's current inability to model a vast scope of tape behavior, mainly the clipping and what happens when you hit it hot.

2) My second quote addressed this: It was stated that the UAD emulation is not very good with somebody backing up their experience with tape. I responded to this with the argument that IF one actually HAS a lot of experience using tape one would KNOW that each tape system sounds VASTLY different to one another. Thus it is almost impossible to dismiss the UAD emulations accuracy without actually having experience with the exact same tape system (machine + calibration + tape brand).

Where do I contradict myself?

Sorry if I'm being ambiguous. I'm doing my best not to!

Cheers!
bManic

[Tp3]

you and bmanic should get married.

Ive never read such moronic information in my life in a thread.

Wow..

Let me explain what he actually meant :

DIVORCE your current wife, and dump those GORGEOUS kids of yours.

Then REMARRY. have sex and then give birth to MORE kids.

After that, come to the forum. and talk.



There you go, consciousness re-initialized in 5 minutes

Marry C !
(don't forget to buy your son a prese(n)t on my behalf ! )

[Nighthawk77]

people claim they have used tons of tape and know exactly how tape sounds.. it doesn't have a friggin universal "sound"!!! They all sound VERY different. Some are harsh and nasty as hell (bad machine+tape combo, shitty maintenance, etc), some are almost completely transparent even when compared to the direct digital source, some are "mush machines", some are transient tyrants, some are soft pillowy saturation boxes, some have aliasing-like in-harmonic crap all over the place and most are broken.

It should be pointed out that professional studios DO NO USE dis-functional or semi-pro analog equipment.

The systems we use are professional units and DO NOT vary wildly like you seem to think. (bmanic-"They all sound VERY different.")

Any one who is looking for an analog emulation plugin is looking to emulate quality tape machines.

The UAD plugin is very specific about its emulations as is Nebula.
(The UAD allows you to choose from several tapes and speeds for subtle difference's.)

Its frankly absurd to think a plugin should emulate every possible variable of analog tape as well as dysfunctional machines.
This is both useless and un-necessary.

Stating, "my experience" is of-course based on my experience and not every tape machine or tape ever made.

Again, just RELAX and what the heck are "mush machines" and "soft pillowy saturation boxes"??? Not Studer, not anything!

My experience is that the UAD is the only one that really sounds like tape at all.

[Zaphod (giancarlo)]

...

okok sorry for the incomprehension

[wsaidah]

you cant win these type of arguments! one man is telling you that nebula cant emulate tape accurately an explains why. the other is saying i like it so what. that's like me telling you this artist cant really sing i have 8 tracks of auto-tune running! then you say so what i love the way she sings! no win situation here

[audiovet]

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[bmanic]

people claim they have used tons of tape and know exactly how tape sounds.. it doesn't have a friggin universal "sound"!!! They all sound VERY different. Some are harsh and nasty as hell (bad machine+tape combo, shitty maintenance, etc), some are almost completely transparent even when compared to the direct digital source, some are "mush machines", some are transient tyrants, some are soft pillowy saturation boxes, some have aliasing-like in-harmonic crap all over the place and most are broken.

It should be pointed out that professional studios DO NO USE dis-functional or semi-pro analog equipment.

The systems we use are professional units and DO NOT vary wildly like you seem to think. (bmanic-"They all sound VERY different.")

.. right. I'm sure there are NO professional studios that have both a Studer A80 running half-inch tape and Revox B67 consumer thing for effects and flavour. Yeah and both of those sound and behave virtually identically. Yeah. You must be right.

Damn.. means our studio isn't professional. We have 3 tape machines, Telefunken M15, Revox B67 and my shitty portastudio thing.

Any one who is looking for an analog emulation plugin is looking to emulate quality tape machines.

Yep. Never has anybody run drumloops or synth loops hot through crappy tape to make them fat. That never happens and is a totally unprofessional thing to do.

The UAD plugin is very specific about its emulations as is Nebula.
(The UAD allows you to choose from several tapes and speeds for subtle difference's.)

Its frankly absurd to think a plugin should emulate every possible variable of analog tape as well as dysfunctional machines.
This is both useless and un-necessary.

Nobody has said the emulation should emulate dysfunctional machines nor that they should emulate all variables of tape. Have I really been that ambiguous or are you just lazy or incapable of actually READING what I have written?

Stating, "my experience" is of-course based on my experience and not every tape machine or tape ever made.

Let me quote what you said earlier,

I own several analog tape machines and used them for years.

Having said that, the UAD distorts too easy, more then analog tape.

You cant hit it as hard as tape and therefor cant get the same saturation.
It is not my favorite of the UAD stuff and rather pricey but it is as close to tape as I have heard.

Its a subtle effect when used as suggested.

I responded to you because you made these claims, which in my opinion are illogical and wrongly founded (even though I haven't tried the UAD emulation myself). I was surprised that you, who apparently own several analog tape machines and have used them for years, haven't noticed how finicky the machines are and how wildly they vary depending on calibration and tape type.

Again, you claim that there is no variance between "professional machines" but you surely know that there never even was any standard in calibration itself!! There are recommendations set by the tape manufacturers (hence they have their own calibration tapes) but that didn't stop people from over or under-biasing their machines for a different response on the tape! .. and those differences in how you calibrate the machine and what tape you use are NOT subtle, at least not in my opinion (though I've been accused of paying too much attention to small changes in audio by a certain Kingston dude ).

So, how can you know the UAD is distorting too easily (note that -18dBFS is usually considered +4dBU!!)? "More than analog tape".. eh? That claim was my main beef. There is so large a variance between tape brands (combined with how it is calibrated) that you simply can NOT back up this claim. It makes no sense. You have tapes with soft saturation curves. Other brands and types have a more hard knee curve. I mean.. man.

Again, just RELAX and what the heck are "mush machines" and "soft pillowy saturation boxes"??? Not Studer, not anything!

I'm perfectly relaxed. I'm entitled to my opinion and in this case, IN MY OPINION, you are spreading misinformation and a lot of generalizations so to get some counter balance into this thread, I keep going at it.

I maintain my original point: Tape is not an universal "sound" nor a predictable "effect". It's a very dynamic and delicate piece of equipment that has a very wide RANGE to it's flavour/behaviour which makes it very hard to dismiss an emulation as accurate or inaccurate without knowing exactly what it was modelled and based on!

Hope I was clear enough this time. I'm not trying to be argumentative, promise!

Cheers!
bManic

PS. "Mush machine" is something that turns whatever you put into it to "mush". Like my old marantz 2-track when it's run hot. "Soft pillowy saturation", to me, is AGFA PEM 468 when saturated moderately. I guess it has a fairly soft knee or some other magic which makes it immune to immediate hard clipping.

[bmanic]

on the contrary man. I see u here and even though I dont post on gearslutz I still read the threads and your posts there, and I see you pop your head in with definitive remarks like a know it all and Im pretty tired of it. Finally when you leave idiotic remarks like that one about tape I had to say something. Its your confidence behind your irrational thoughts that gets to me. 95%!!? Get a clue man

So.. let me get this straight. You have some beef with me because I'm writing on public message boards, stating my own personal opinion?

Did you actually read my post thoroughly? I thought the "slightly exaggerated" (or sarcastic?) remark of 95% was rather obvious? Surely you know that 99% of the time somebody mentions a % they don't have a clue of the REAL statistic?

You take all this a bit too seriously, don't you?

How about joining the discussion instead and telling your opinion. What did you not grok with my original "omg 95%!!" post that ticked you off? Surely you can be civil, no?

- bManic

[Nighthawk77]

"bmanic" WROTE:

"...even though I haven't tried the UAD emulation myself..."

95%????????????????????????????

with all due respect, WTF are you talkin about? bmanic, seriously what makes you such an authority? WIth hyperbole like that you discredit any technical background you may have

on the contrary man. I see u here and even though I dont post on gearslutz I still read the threads and your posts there, and I see you pop your head in with definitive remarks like a know it all and Im pretty tired of it. Finally when you leave idiotic remarks like that one about tape I had to say something. Its your confidence behind your irrational thoughts that gets to me. 95%!!? Get a clue man

+1

bmanic, I would highly recommend actually trying the plugin before going on a such an authority.
It makes you look dogmatic and ridiculous.

[bmanic]

"bmanic" WROTE:

"...even though I haven't tried the UAD emulation myself..."

95%????????????????????????????

with all due respect, WTF are you talkin about? bmanic, seriously what makes you such an authority? WIth hyperbole like that you discredit any technical background you may have

on the contrary man. I see u here and even though I dont post on gearslutz I still read the threads and your posts there, and I see you pop your head in with definitive remarks like a know it all and Im pretty tired of it. Finally when you leave idiotic remarks like that one about tape I had to say something. Its your confidence behind your irrational thoughts that gets to me. 95%!!? Get a clue man

+1

bmanic, I would highly recommend actually trying the plugin before going on a such an authority.
It makes you look dogmatic and ridiculous.

Holy shit. CAN'T. YOU. READ!?

You completely and utterly MISQUOTE me all the time. WTF?

Holy fuckn shit. Do I have to spell it out ALL.. and then you side with a guy who is only spewing hate and has not once said anything constructive in this thread. Did I touch some nerve somewhere, eh? Perhaps your "several analogue tape machines and years of use" line is more fiction than reality? Is that it?

So, all Nebula can do at the moment is approximate the "sound", flavour and harmonic content of tape and it's overdrive. That's all.

Cheers!
bManic

Is that bad ?

I mean, if people are pleased (VERY pleased) with the results... isn't THAT
what counts ?

As I see it, this approximation works well for most people... do we have to
seek that "extra inch" just for the sake of it ?...

Looks like you missed my point. We are not just missing "extra inches".. we are missing like 95% of tape emulation in Nebula, at least if you want to use tape as an effect and not just fairy dust.

It's like having a compressor plugin that can only compress a maximum of 2dB.

Please don't avoid the issue. Nebula can NOT emulate tape properly at this time. Period. It can approximate the behavior at a very narrow range of values.

Cheers!
bManic

So as you can see, the ORIGINAL message was in reference to the NEBULA discussion and how it can not full fill the role of an obvious "tape effect", that is, tape driven hard.

audiodob took some amazing amount of offense because of what I said there. Why? I have no idea. I even clearly stated that Nebula is superb in a more subtle tape effect role, as in, it's making things sound great! So it can't be a fanboy attack.. just somebody who has some beef with my opinion in general.

How on earth can we even pretend to have a proper discussion here if you can not even do the most basic thing and actually READ what the other person says? I admit that it can be a bit confusing when there are several plugins discussed but come on..

I think it's time to just give up and take some distance from this forum.. again.

- bManic

[audiovet]

DELETED