Zebra - Chaotic Modulation?

[hakey]

I guess it should be possible to use LFO's and the modmixer to produce mathematically chaotic modulation signals - anybody have any suggestions about how to do this?

[wavphorm]

i usually achieve this by using the lfo with random glide waveform, then another lfo to modulate the rate, and another to modulate the amount... but there are so many ways of achieving "chaotic modulations" that it really depends what you mean by chaotic!

[ariston]

Use a random shape for the LFO, then modulate the rate of LFO1 with LFO 2, which can be random as well.

[edit: beat me to it ]

[hakey]

it really depends what you mean by chaotic!

I was careful to say mathematically chaotic - which rules out random (or pseudo random) modulations.

And, thinking about it, I'm not so sure that what I want can be done with the modmixer - it requires feedback somewhere in the signal path.

[jupiter8]

it really depends what you mean by chaotic!

I was careful to say mathematically chaotic - which rules out random (or pseudo random) modulations.

there is no universally accepted mathematical definition of chaos

[wavphorm]

it really depends what you mean by chaotic!

I was careful to say mathematically chaotic - which rules out random (or pseudo random) modulations.

And, thinking about it, I'm not so sure that what I want can be done with the modmixer - it requires feedback somewhere in the signal path.

hmm, i dunno if u can do that kind of feedback in zebra2... although i have done it with Bazille, should also be possible with ACE. as i understand it the latter synths treat CV signals in same way as audio signal (meaning they operate at the same speed as sampling rate). I'm not so sure zebra works that way...

[hakey]

it really depends what you mean by chaotic!

I was careful to say mathematically chaotic - which rules out random (or pseudo random) modulations.

there is no universally accepted mathematical definition of chaos

I think it's universally accepted that chaotic systems are deterministic, whereas that which is random is, by definition, non-deterministic.

To explain better what I'm trying to get at, I'm asking if there's a way of producing deterministic chaotic modulation signals that differ from non-deterministic random [/tautology] signals in the same way that these representations of chaotic geometry:





differ from this representation of random noise:

[jupiter8]

it really depends what you mean by chaotic!

I was careful to say mathematically chaotic - which rules out random (or pseudo random) modulations.

there is no universally accepted mathematical definition of chaos

I think it's universally accepted that chaotic systems are deterministic, whereas that which is random is, by definition, non-deterministic.

Relax dude,i'm justing poking fun at you,the opportunity was too good to miss.
You specifically said "this definition" when the link said there is no definition,that's all.

[hakey]

Another way of putting it would be 'is there any combination of modmixer and lfo's that will produce a signal with non-linear behaviour' - and I guess that, as this implies feedback, the answer for Zebra is 'no'.

[hakey]

Don't worry Jupiter, I'm quite relaxed.

You specifically said "this definition"

With respect, I didn't say that the link was the 'definition' (what I was pointing out, with ref. to that Wiki article, was that chaotic=/=random )

[wavphorm]

u could also look into programming your own stochastic control system in C74 max using something like these objects as a starting point -> http://s373.net/code/A-Chaos-Lib/A-Chaos.html

you would need to scale the output data back to MIDI CC range 0-127 and then map to zebra (or whatever else!).

just a thought

[hakey]

u could also look into programming your own stochastic control system in C74 max using something like these objects as a starting point -> http://s373.net/code/A-Chaos-Lib/A-Chaos.html

you would need to scale the output data back to MIDI CC range 0-127 and then map to zebra (or whatever else!).

just a thought

Thanks - but that's a bit more work than I had in mind! (...and I don't have Max, or the first idea when it comes to programming)

[pdxindy]

Another way of putting it would be 'is there any combination of modmixer and lfo's that will produce a signal with non-linear behaviour' - and I guess that, as this implies feedback, the answer for Zebra is 'no'.

Is this an intellectual exercise? Or do you have an actual musical objective? I mean, you are not going to be able to draw a Mandelbrot set with an LFO and ModMapper, but then again, maybe there happens to be 1 savant somewhere in the world that could hear it anyway even if you could... But you can make all sorts of interesting modulations that are non-linear...

[hakey]

Is this an intellectual exercise? Or do you have an actual musical objective?

No, I have a musical objective - a complex evolving modulation signal for use in fx sounds, that doesn't display obvious periodicity and isn't completely random either.

I've tried all sorts of modmix/lfo combos - modulating a random glide lfo with another random lfo, for example, doesn't quite get the effect I'm after. I had been wondering whether there might be a mathematical trick, say, setting LFO rates to ratios based upon prime numbers.

Then it struck me that what I am really after is something along the lines of mathematically chaotic behaviour - hence this thread.

(I'm pretty sure the non-linear behaviour I'm talking about requires feedback.)

[Howard]

I have a musical objective - a complex evolving modulation signal for use in fx sounds, that doesn't display obvious periodicity and isn't completely random either.

"Isn't completely random" meaning what?
BTW: For long loops requiring more than 32 stages, use several MSEGS "in series".