Zebra - Chaotic Modulation?

[pdxindy]

Is this an intellectual exercise? Or do you have an actual musical objective?

No, I have a musical objective - a complex evolving modulation signal for use in fx sounds, that doesn't display obvious periodicity and isn't completely random either.

I've tried all sorts of modmix/lfo combos - modulating a random glide lfo with another random lfo, for example, doesn't quite get the effect I'm after. I had been wondering whether there might be a mathematical trick, say, setting LFO rates to ratios based upon prime numbers.

Then it struck me that what I am really after is something along the lines of mathematically chaotic behaviour - hence this thread.

(I'm pretty sure the non-linear behaviour I'm talking about requires feedback.)

What sort of feedback? It is hard to suggest something when I don't really understand the sound you are looking for. But I would try an MSEG with another MSEG added together... then a LFO on user mode with a couple spikes modulating the MSEG rate... so 2 modulators on 1 parameter.. or 1 MSEG and one LFO on user... I often prefer to draw my own not use the random LFO function.

I have used this setup to create pseudo random modulations that don't sound exactly random but more like a natural system... this setup can have some fast changes and slow changes. It can sound quite organic.

I'd post an audio example, but the latest beta is messed up in the LFO and I am lazy to replace it with the old version...

[robgxmn]

Made me think of this.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=214851

[hakey]

"Isn't completely random" meaning what?

Neither periodic (repeating at some point) nor random (non-deterministic). An aperiodic, non-linear signal would fit the bill.

What sort of feedback? It is hard to suggest something when I don't really understand the sound you are looking for.

Feedback in this case would be the output signal in some way modulating the input - for example, using the output of the modmixer to modulate the rate of an LFO within the modmixer (yes, I know this can't be done).

And I'm not after a 'sound' per se, I'm after some way to produce complex aperiodic/non-linear/chaotic signals (for which I could probably find many uses - mainly for aperiodic modulations ).

I had wondered if there was perhaps a quick mathematical rule (say, a particular configuration of modmixer + LFO's set at prime number ratios) to produce an aperiodic signal.

I know I could chain lots of painstakingly drawn MSEGs, or modulate a (pseudo) random lfo by another, but, as I've said a few times now, neither is what I'm after.

But in the asking, I've answered my own question - without a feedback path I don't think that it's possible to produce a non-linear aperiodic signal.

[mcnoone]

But I would try an MSEG with another MSEG added together... then a LFO on user mode with a couple spikes modulating the MSEG rate... so 2 modulators on 1 parameter.. or 1 MSEG and one LFO on user... I often prefer to draw my own not use the random LFO function.

I did a preset for the ZPC12 called Reckless, that uses this method.

He could in effect use some lfo's and ModMappers to go through a cycle, of what would appear to be random, but actually be a determined pattern.
Yes it's possible.
Lfo's in user step mode though.

[hakey]

Made me think of this.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=214851

If that's what I think it is, then it would likely do exactly what I'm talking about!

[hakey]

He could in effect use some lfo's and ModMappers to go through a cycle, of what would appear to be random, but actually be a determined pattern.
Yes it's possible.
Lfo's in user step mode though.

No mc - your combination may produce a complex signal but not a non-linear chaotic, aperiodic signal, there is no feedback path anywhere.

With respect, I don't think anybody (with the poss. exception of robgxmn) has really understood what I'm talking about - and I'm pretty sure that I'm not talking a load of bollox here.

If you don't understand what is meant in a mathematical sense by feedback, non-linear systems, chaos vs randomness, deterministic vs non-determinism, periodicity vs aperiodicity - then you're really not going to understand what I'm trying to get at.

[pdxindy]

But in the asking, I've answered my own question - without a feedback path I don't think that it's possible to produce a non-linear aperiodic signal.

Sure it is... if it happens to repeat after a 45 minutes, it will be unrecognizable so in effect it is aperiodic. So yes, you can do what you are talking about. Just let go of the idea of mathematical perfection...

This is 1 keypress... non repeating (maybe after hours it is periodic) and non linear modulation:
http://draigathar.org/sounds/stutterstep.wav

Here is a quick preset that just uses simple lfo's to modulate cutoff... it will not repeat in any recognizable way but it is not just random:
http://draigathar.org/sounds/NLAP.h2p.zip

[hakey]

Just let go of the idea of mathematical perfection...

:cough: :splutter: Erm... No!

Music is mathematics! I reckon that mathematical perfection in music can be a very good thing indeed.

As Gottfried Liebniz said:

"Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting."

[pdxindy]

Just let go of the idea of mathematical perfection...

:cough: :splutter: Erm... No!

Music is mathematics! I reckon that mathematical perfection in music can be a very good thing indeed.

As Gottfried Liebniz said:

"Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting."

All that matters is effective aperiodicity... If you make something that only repeats after hours of playing, it is good enough. That is why I asked if your quest was theoretical or practical. You said practical, but now say theoretical.

The Stutterstep preset I posted an audio clip of in my last post may repeat after some hours. I have not calculated it out but it is at least a couple hours. Doesn't matter. I've held the keypress for 30+ minutes and it is ever changing.

The preset I posted is a simple example but you can do the same with MSEG's, ModMappers, LFO's and looping envelopes and make complex modulations that sound like natural systems. You can trigger patterns like the stutterstep wav that are recognizable, but not repeating... like fractal patterns... does not matter if they are mathematically correct because they are close enough for this purpose as to be indistinguishable.

[hakey]

All that matters is effective aperiodicity...

No, there is more to it than just aperiodicity.

And sorry, but please give up this patronise attitude! I asked a very specific question, second guessing what I in fact want, or trying to persuade me that I was asking a silly question really isn't at all helpful, or, for that matter, polite.

Thanks.

[hakey]

You said practical, but now say theoretical.

Go on then - where did I change my mind?

[justin3am]

As Gottfried Liebniz said:

"Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting."

Oh c'mon, that sounds hopelessly pretentious, even to me.

I don't think you're going to get mathematically precise chaos from Zebra, though you can get some of feedback going on between modulation sources.

I've also endeavored down this road and have found that there are simply better tools for the job (as much as I love Zebra). Bazille has patchable lag and s&h processors which will get you closer to your goal, but really Reaktor and Max/MSP are more flexible options.

[pdxindy]

All that matters is effective aperiodicity...

No, there is more to it than just aperiodicity.

And sorry, but please give up this patronise attitude! I asked a very specific question, second guessing what I in fact want, or trying to persuade me that I was asking a silly question really isn't at all helpful, or, for that matter, polite.

Thanks.

Huh?? I don't think your question is silly. That is why I took the time to dig up that audio clip and to make a preset and post it for you. I've explored these sorts of things quite a bit and really enjoy them.

[mcnoone]

please give up this patronise attitude!

I agree.
Your the resident brainiak here, so do some research with that fractal chaos thing, and report back with the results.
We will show appreciation for your efforts.

Actually I believe that with using computers, there is no true "random", it only seems random to us, but the computers random feature is always deterministic.
So even using a random set lfo is some kind of pattern anyway.

[hakey]

Huh?? I don't think your question is silly. That is why I took the time to dig up that audio clip and to make a preset and post it for you. I've explored these sorts of things quite a bit and really enjoy them.

sorry for taking offence - but I just got the feeling that you were trying to *persuade* me, rather than answer the specific question I asked at the top of the thread.

Like someone asking for a recipe for apple pie, but being told that apple crumble was easier to make.

Apologies for my thin skin.