Zebra - Chaotic Modulation?

[hakey]

Actually I believe that with using computers, there is no true "random", it only seems random to us, but the computers random feature is always deterministic.
So even using a random set lfo is some kind of pattern anyway.

Yes, you're quite right - (most) computers are deterministic. Zebra's 'random' elements (LFO, Noise) will in fact be pseudo random.

You can get 'random' chips for computers that generate true randomness by measuring the decay of a radioactive substance in the chip.

[pdxindy]

You said practical, but now say theoretical.

Go on then - where did I change my mind?

You said "And I'm not after a 'sound' per se, I'm after some way to produce complex aperiodic/non-linear/chaotic signals (for which I could probably find many uses - mainly for aperiodic modulations )."

My point is that you can get results that are effectively the same... so my question is pertinent... Are you interested in musical results, or in theoretical perfection. If it is the former, then my suggestions and posts are relevant. If it is the later, then no Zebra cannot do that and there is nothing more to discuss.

If musical results, then the stutterstep audio clip is 1 keypress (Not arpeggiated but just 1 held note) and does not repeat in a meaningful way and is also not just random.

Anyway, I found your question interesting and was enthusiastic to discuss it... I would rather just discuss the topic itself if that is okay with you... Did you try the preset?

[pdxindy]

Huh?? I don't think your question is silly. That is why I took the time to dig up that audio clip and to make a preset and post it for you. I've explored these sorts of things quite a bit and really enjoy them.

sorry for taking offence - but I just got the feeling that you were trying to *persuade* me, rather than answer the specific question I asked at the top of the thread.

Like someone asking for a recipe for apple pie, but being told that apple crumble was easier to make.

Apologies for my thin skin.

No worry at all... I often find it hard to interpret intent on the internet...

Did you try the preset I posted?

[hakey]

Anyway, I've just worked out (and as I think justin was probably hinting at) you can get feedback running between LFO's (rate) and MSEGs (loop) - so truly chaotic behaviour could be possible in Zebra, not that I expect anyone will care.

[hakey]

Are you interested in musical results, or in theoretical perfection.

I'm interested in exploring the musical results that might be gained by using a modulation signal that exhibits truly chaotic behaviour - theory and practice.

[pdxindy]

Anyway, I've just worked out (and as I think justin was probably hinting at) you can get feedback running between LFO's (rate) and MSEGs (loop) - so truly chaotic behaviour could be possible in Zebra, not that I expect anyone will care.

You can modulate LFO1 with LFO2 and LFO2 with LFO1... you have to use the mod matrix cause you wont be able to do it in the mod slots on the LFO itself...

[hakey]

Did you try the preset I posted?

Yep - hmmm... doesn't 'feel' like the kind of signal I had in mind.

[hakey]

[You can modulate LFO1 with LFO2 and LFO2 with LFO1... you have to use the mod matrix cause you wont be able to do it in the mod slots on the LFO itself...

Ah right - well that's a feedback path, precisely what I was talking about. I had presumed that feedback between mod signals was deliberately disallowed in Zebra.

The next question is whether there are any mathematical rules (eg ratios of LFO rate) which could be applied and that might produce musically interesting results.

Failing that - it's a case of hit or miss.

[pdxindy]

Did you try the preset I posted?

Yep - hmmm... doesn't 'feel' like the kind of signal I had in mind.

That first one was way too simple... I aim for sounding "organic"... Try this one which is closer to what I did with Stutterstep. Hold a note for a bit:

http://draigathar.org/sounds/NLAP2.h2p.zip

[hakey]

Well it's kind of getting there - and there is feedback going on between the LFO's, so that is what I was talking about all along.

I'll experiment some more with it.

[pdxindy]

Try putting LFO2 to user mode on that last preset and then make just a few ups and downs... you can also try LFO1 and 3 on square... then put LFO2 in user mode onto OSC tune...

Doing these kinds of modulations, you can get some really nice results where the sound changes only a little for a bit then makes sudden bigger changes that are unexpected but still sounds organic and "natural"

[hakey]

Doing these kinds of modulations, you can get some really nice results where the sound changes only a little for a bit then makes sudden bigger changes that are unexpected but still sounds organic and "natural"

And because you have feedback going on it's chaotic! I think we've been slightly at cross purposes since page2.

Here's a video of two similarly coupled LFO's:



Changes of speed and direction of one are dependant upon the speed and direction of the other which are dependant upon etc.. etc..

It's a simple system displaying behaviour that is aperiodic and chaotic - but not random (it is deterministic - future states are determined by the past state of the system).

[pdxindy]

Doing these kinds of modulations, you can get some really nice results where the sound changes only a little for a bit then makes sudden bigger changes that are unexpected but still sounds organic and "natural"

And because you have feedback going on it's chaotic! I think we've been slightly at cross purposes since page2.

Here's a video of two similarly coupled LFO's:



Changes of speed and direction of one are dependant upon the speed and direction of the other which are dependant upon etc.. etc..

It's a simple system displaying behaviour that is aperiodic and chaotic - but not random (it is deterministic - future states are determined by the past state of the system).

Those double pendulums are cool... I have played with those in 3d software with dynamics systems... a more complex system than 2 lfo's in Zebra, but fortunately we can get more complex in Zebra than just 2 LFO's... Would be cool to have inertia and friction. Numerology can do quite a bit and then drive Zebra and while complicated, still easier than Max or Reaktor... not sure what Bidule can do.


Here is the last preset I posted slightly modified...
http://draigathar.org/sounds/NLAP.wav

Rather than try to make complex systems I have found it easier to do a bit of faking which is more controllable. For example, make a triple feedback loop like the above example for modulating, but then use a LFO on user to bring it in only here and there. That is more like what I did with Stutterstep. Cheating in the cause of musicality

[jupiter8]

There were talks 2-3 years ago about a real time scripting engine in Zebra but so far none has surfaced. It would be ideal for this kind of scenario. I read up on this subject and there's some interesting stuff for sure to try. I also saw something on the telly the other day about this stuff,intriguing indeed. Chaos and order are just two sides of the same coin. And to think that i filed this stuff under "Hippie nonsense" all those years. You should nag Urs about the scripting engine,fractals for the people.

[hakey]

You should nag Urs about the scripting engine,fractals for the people.

I'm not sure that I'm the right person to nag Urs . Besides, he's probably got far more productive ways of using his time than implementing my esoteric/frivolous requests.