Hello folks, sorry I've been a bit too busy to answer anything on the forum for a few days. I'll try to catch up later this week.
In the meantime I wanted to start a thread to try to collect together all the many piano-roll improvement ideas that people have floated over the last year.
I'm planning to start reworking the piano roll shortly (for version 2), and I want to make sure I don't lose any good ideas that were suggested months ago and which I've since forgotten. Might also be good to discuss this again now that we've got so many experienced tracktioneers here.
I've got no fixed ideas yet about exactly what I'm going to do with the piano-roll, so if you want to influence my decisions, this is the thread to use!
Piano-roll improvements?
-
- Chief Tracktioneer
- 532 posts since 14 Nov, 2002 from London
-
- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Standard windows modifiers - ctrl/drag for copy.
If the snap is on when you're dragging and a note is not exactly on the grid, ensure that it has the same offset when you drop. Cubase snaps pushed or pulled notes to the grid - it's a pain.
If the snap is on when you're dragging and a note is not exactly on the grid, ensure that it has the same offset when you drop. Cubase snaps pushed or pulled notes to the grid - it's a pain.
-
- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
download the massiva / energyXT demos ...
... very good piano-rolls all round (id be happy for tracktion to just have something VERY close to these) but what would be great is if you could at least incorporate something like jorgens step-entry mode model (basically cursor keys to move round the grid and ins / del to add / remove notes) - hugely quick and easy to use
slainte
rob
... very good piano-rolls all round (id be happy for tracktion to just have something VERY close to these) but what would be great is if you could at least incorporate something like jorgens step-entry mode model (basically cursor keys to move round the grid and ins / del to add / remove notes) - hugely quick and easy to use
slainte
rob-
- KVRer
- 14 posts since 14 Feb, 2004 from chicago
1. inserting or editing notes is a real drag if the loop markers or the cursor line is nearby. you either can't insert anything or you end up moving one of those markers instead of inserting something.
2. is it possible to turn off autohide for the tools pane? you have to make a direct drag from the piano roll to the pane's location to make it appear. if you coast outside the track en route, the pane doesn't appear.
3. copying and pasting notes without moving other clips to the right would be a good default.
4. copying pasting intermittently gives me a "nothing to paste" alert, even though the notes are in the clipboard. the frustrating thing is that it's intermittent, which leads me ot believe that it's not a feature.
5. lengthening/shortening multiple notes with the mouse doesn't seem to work, whether i'm holiding alt, ctrl, start, my breath or anything else.
6. sorta related, i'd like to be able to click and drag velocity for multiple notes - let's say that i have a crescendo sequence that's a little too quiet - i'd like to select the notes and raise them all a certain, equal amount.
thanks, jules. nice to have you back!
2. is it possible to turn off autohide for the tools pane? you have to make a direct drag from the piano roll to the pane's location to make it appear. if you coast outside the track en route, the pane doesn't appear.
3. copying and pasting notes without moving other clips to the right would be a good default.
4. copying pasting intermittently gives me a "nothing to paste" alert, even though the notes are in the clipboard. the frustrating thing is that it's intermittent, which leads me ot believe that it's not a feature.
5. lengthening/shortening multiple notes with the mouse doesn't seem to work, whether i'm holiding alt, ctrl, start, my breath or anything else.
6. sorta related, i'd like to be able to click and drag velocity for multiple notes - let's say that i have a crescendo sequence that's a little too quiet - i'd like to select the notes and raise them all a certain, equal amount.
thanks, jules. nice to have you back!
-
- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
A quick way to select then copy/paste bars. Metro in OS X lets you click the bar heading and select all bar contents. Then you can copy it, select a new bar heading, and paste easily. I know it can be done as-is, but Metro's way is very fast and clear. when working with variations on a repeating theme, this would make the process very speedy.
I'd also like step-entry mode.
And maybe a snap-to scale/key feature. Nothing fancy, just have a mode that doesn't allow the user to enter a note in anything but the defined scale/key, which can be toggled on/off. This would be great for creating random basslines etc and shouldn't be very hard to do.
Maybe a chord-entry template. Storm has a circle-of-fifths thing that works nicely, Maybe you can select the chords you want, and then the tool could 'paste' it into a bar. Then you could add to or alter the chord without it being tied to the template, so it could work differently than Storm's interpretation.
I actually think some template-type editing tools would be good, like a step/drum-sequencer that can paste into a bar. You wouldn't be tied to the step sequencer, it would be more of a 'note (word) processor' and therefore not be as prone to causing bugs in Traction.
I'd also like step-entry mode.
And maybe a snap-to scale/key feature. Nothing fancy, just have a mode that doesn't allow the user to enter a note in anything but the defined scale/key, which can be toggled on/off. This would be great for creating random basslines etc and shouldn't be very hard to do.
Maybe a chord-entry template. Storm has a circle-of-fifths thing that works nicely, Maybe you can select the chords you want, and then the tool could 'paste' it into a bar. Then you could add to or alter the chord without it being tied to the template, so it could work differently than Storm's interpretation.
I actually think some template-type editing tools would be good, like a step/drum-sequencer that can paste into a bar. You wouldn't be tied to the step sequencer, it would be more of a 'note (word) processor' and therefore not be as prone to causing bugs in Traction.
-
- KVRAF
- 5350 posts since 8 Aug, 2003 from Berlin Germany
I would like some kind of way to do processing of piano data. Like a logic editor to chop all notes, invert their order, etc. It doesn't have to be integrated so long as you leave a hole where you can add this later (it would be more or less 'off-line processing' the way I see it).
Cheers!
[Possibly this could be handled using a custom VST Module to any ambitios third party helpers out there?? Don't know maybe. MOD,Valley ? is it true...]
Cheers!
[Possibly this could be handled using a custom VST Module to any ambitios third party helpers out there?? Don't know maybe. MOD,Valley ? is it true...]
-
- KVRist
- 68 posts since 9 Jul, 2003
It would be nice to edit notes and velocities and at the same time, mabye an option to split the piano roll and show controller data on the bottom half and notes on the top. Other than that just better quantize.
-
- KVRAF
- 5350 posts since 8 Aug, 2003 from Berlin Germany
[major edit]
-Edit/attach VST parameters in piano roll clips* [really important]
-In general, a way to control note info and attach vst parameters/CC to a note. Like a viewer for selected note would show length, velocity and jx10 filter = 60 or CC 1 = 120 for that note.
-Some kind of way to slide/tie notes (is this possible?).
-Curve tools for parameters/CC.
-Be able to edit notes at the same time as velocity/parameters.
-ASCII keyboard input mode.
-Be able to resize notes with slection tool also (I mean like all notes selected grow/srink).
-Be able to draw velocity curve on top of a pattern that allows you to add to or subtract from the overall velocities going out.
-Random pattern generator (notes and parameter/CC).
Oh yeah. I know the chances of this happening are pretty slim (so speak up others if you agree), but I'd like a way to 'Track' in data then see it the piano roll.
Similarly, I know may people have wanted a trigger based piano roll (drum grid etc.)
(not high on my list but I think probbly pretty high on most people's).
-Edit/attach VST parameters in piano roll clips* [really important]
-In general, a way to control note info and attach vst parameters/CC to a note. Like a viewer for selected note would show length, velocity and jx10 filter = 60 or CC 1 = 120 for that note.
-Some kind of way to slide/tie notes (is this possible?).
-Curve tools for parameters/CC.
-Be able to edit notes at the same time as velocity/parameters.
-ASCII keyboard input mode.
-Be able to resize notes with slection tool also (I mean like all notes selected grow/srink).
-Be able to draw velocity curve on top of a pattern that allows you to add to or subtract from the overall velocities going out.
-Random pattern generator (notes and parameter/CC).
Oh yeah. I know the chances of this happening are pretty slim (so speak up others if you agree), but I'd like a way to 'Track' in data then see it the piano roll.
Similarly, I know may people have wanted a trigger based piano roll (drum grid etc.)
(not high on my list but I think probbly pretty high on most people's).
Last edited by soma on Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
- KVRist
- 31 posts since 18 Feb, 2003
Jules,
Although I think the GUI interface is cool, I would like to see the piano roll at the bottom of the screen in the preview section when you double click the track. Garageband has the roll down there and maybe this would work with a TAB ELEMENT system to change from the MIDI properties preview to piano roll editing and back again?
Keep up the good work!
Walker "Tracktion" Ranger
Although I think the GUI interface is cool, I would like to see the piano roll at the bottom of the screen in the preview section when you double click the track. Garageband has the roll down there and maybe this would work with a TAB ELEMENT system to change from the MIDI properties preview to piano roll editing and back again?
Keep up the good work!
Walker "Tracktion" Ranger
-
- KVRist
- 378 posts since 28 Jul, 2002 from Somewhere in between
- shift + drag notes horizontal should drag notes only horizontal, shift + drag notes vertical should work as it does now.
- change note lengths of groups of notes by dragging them.
- let the eraser erase whole notes at once, not partly. If you want the eraser do special stuff, let it create holes in notes (I use the Delete button on my keyboard anyway).
- any new note I draw should have the same velocity as the one before. Velocity should start at 100, not 127.
- add a dedicated velocity button to the midi popup menu.
- draw lines and curves in velocity or cc mode.
I like the idea of a random pattern generator, soma.
- change note lengths of groups of notes by dragging them.
- let the eraser erase whole notes at once, not partly. If you want the eraser do special stuff, let it create holes in notes (I use the Delete button on my keyboard anyway).
- any new note I draw should have the same velocity as the one before. Velocity should start at 100, not 127.
- add a dedicated velocity button to the midi popup menu.
- draw lines and curves in velocity or cc mode.
I like the idea of a random pattern generator, soma.
-
- KVRist
- 41 posts since 23 Dec, 2003
A couple of minor things.
I currently see no way to select all notes in the clip without having to first select at least one note at which point the Select Notes button becomes available. Tried to assign a shortcut but didn't find it in the list of available commands (adding it would be enough actually).
Definitely a better (or in my case, working
) quantise.
A cosmetic issue mostly: on the Mac OS "Option" (or "Alt" as some call it) is the key that's traditionally used for copying stuff system wide and in every app I can remember. Not exclusively piano-roll related but remapping this for the mac version should save a moment of confusion for quite some people.
Some sort of drum-focused mode would be groovy (something like drumtracks in Cubase perhaps).
I currently see no way to select all notes in the clip without having to first select at least one note at which point the Select Notes button becomes available. Tried to assign a shortcut but didn't find it in the list of available commands (adding it would be enough actually).
Definitely a better (or in my case, working
) quantise.nuffink wrote:Standard windows modifiers - ctrl/drag for copy.
A cosmetic issue mostly: on the Mac OS "Option" (or "Alt" as some call it) is the key that's traditionally used for copying stuff system wide and in every app I can remember. Not exclusively piano-roll related but remapping this for the mac version should save a moment of confusion for quite some people.
Some sort of drum-focused mode would be groovy
(something like drumtracks in Cubase perhaps).-
- KVRist
- 453 posts since 10 Jul, 2003 from Rotterdam
'Midi clip to groove template' function.
A way to 'destructively' quantise midi clips without having to 'open' them and select all notes first.
A way to 'destructively' quantise midi clips without having to 'open' them and select all notes first.
-
- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
* drag'n'drop between clips!
* to provide some kind of step sequencer facility without having to mess around with a step sequencer, have a 'preset note' style in the bottom area for a clip that offers default length and velocity parameters. Single clicks will simply create the default note. Click/drags will create note of the dragged length using the default velocity.
* right click acts as 'erase'. Does anyone actually even want to keep the eraser tool?
* lose the blobs on the tops of midi events and velocities.
* add a user toggleable bar graph beneath the note area (think fruityloops) that can be used for rapid pan/velocity/and start time offset changes.
* to provide some kind of step sequencer facility without having to mess around with a step sequencer, have a 'preset note' style in the bottom area for a clip that offers default length and velocity parameters. Single clicks will simply create the default note. Click/drags will create note of the dragged length using the default velocity.
* right click acts as 'erase'. Does anyone actually even want to keep the eraser tool?
* lose the blobs on the tops of midi events and velocities.
* add a user toggleable bar graph beneath the note area (think fruityloops) that can be used for rapid pan/velocity/and start time offset changes.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
-
- KVRer
- 16 posts since 10 Dec, 2002 from Frankfurt
I had this idea of a pianoroll without paint and erase toolbar recently.
-left mouse click inserts a note
-right click on a note erases it (do macs still have only one mouse button???)
-left click and hold to move note around
-double left click on a note or group of notes opens a semi-transparent rectangular window right above the selected note. This window has three areas for controlling note length and velocity. Just move the mouse onto one of these areas and click-hold move to edit one parameter.
The left area of the rectangle is for lengthening the note to the left, the right area for lengthening to the right and the middle area for velocity (move mouse up-down or whatever)
-left click and hold and move to lasso notes for editing (one left-click-and-hold on a note in the selected group moves group around and double-left-click on a note opens the window descibed above for note length and velocity editing)
Just an idea. I can imagine it being a lot faster than using a toolbar for basic midi editing functions but I could be completely mistaken. Maybe Jules or ModuLR or Valley could create a graphic dummy of it.
-left mouse click inserts a note
-right click on a note erases it (do macs still have only one mouse button???)
-left click and hold to move note around
-double left click on a note or group of notes opens a semi-transparent rectangular window right above the selected note. This window has three areas for controlling note length and velocity. Just move the mouse onto one of these areas and click-hold move to edit one parameter.
The left area of the rectangle is for lengthening the note to the left, the right area for lengthening to the right and the middle area for velocity (move mouse up-down or whatever)
-left click and hold and move to lasso notes for editing (one left-click-and-hold on a note in the selected group moves group around and double-left-click on a note opens the window descibed above for note length and velocity editing)
Just an idea. I can imagine it being a lot faster than using a toolbar for basic midi editing functions but I could be completely mistaken. Maybe Jules or ModuLR or Valley could create a graphic dummy of it.
-
- KVRAF
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
damn, it's been so long that I've forgotten the good ideas. 
Off hand, I'd like to start at the CORE basics. The key to a good piano roll is that is must have a really good feel to it. I think FLStudio has problably one of the smoothest piano rolls out there.
The pencil tool should be the default.
When entering a note, it should not permit you to adjust the length... instead it should permit placement. This is part of the reason Tracktion's piano roll feels weird. You sometimes you just want to click a note, and next thing you know you are changing the length of it at the same time.. which means you have to be careful not to drag the cursor sideways as you click. I think people most often are placing notes when entering, then they adjust the length.
Placing your cursor in the middle of a note, sould permit you to move the note around freely as well.
Placing the cursor at the edge of a note should permit you to adjust length. The editor should remember the length of the last note you entered, and when you drop another note, it should default to that length (that way you don't have to resize the grid to define your note lengths).
Right clicking a note should delete it.
A modifier key to use the selection tool.
This would make it such that with a mouse, and usage of a single modifier key like shift... all basic editing functions can be performed hassel free.
for example you've entered a bunch of notes... Shift+drag to select a section of them, then right click a selected note and all selected notes are deleted.
I think another modifier key could be used when dragging over a note to adjust the velocity.
I also like the idea of eXT's step mode which I would love to see combined with and aspect of FL as well. A mode where the piano on the side disappears and in it's place are just boxes where you can write your own label. This would turn the piano roll into an instant drum editor.
that's all I can think of right now...
Off hand, I'd like to start at the CORE basics. The key to a good piano roll is that is must have a really good feel to it. I think FLStudio has problably one of the smoothest piano rolls out there.
The pencil tool should be the default.
When entering a note, it should not permit you to adjust the length... instead it should permit placement. This is part of the reason Tracktion's piano roll feels weird. You sometimes you just want to click a note, and next thing you know you are changing the length of it at the same time.. which means you have to be careful not to drag the cursor sideways as you click. I think people most often are placing notes when entering, then they adjust the length.
Placing your cursor in the middle of a note, sould permit you to move the note around freely as well.
Placing the cursor at the edge of a note should permit you to adjust length. The editor should remember the length of the last note you entered, and when you drop another note, it should default to that length (that way you don't have to resize the grid to define your note lengths).
Right clicking a note should delete it.
A modifier key to use the selection tool.
This would make it such that with a mouse, and usage of a single modifier key like shift... all basic editing functions can be performed hassel free.
for example you've entered a bunch of notes... Shift+drag to select a section of them, then right click a selected note and all selected notes are deleted.
I think another modifier key could be used when dragging over a note to adjust the velocity.
I also like the idea of eXT's step mode which I would love to see combined with and aspect of FL as well. A mode where the piano on the side disappears and in it's place are just boxes where you can write your own label. This would turn the piano roll into an instant drum editor.
that's all I can think of right now...
Last edited by ModuLR on Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ModuLR / Radio