KVR Audio

pwal · Post by **pwal** » Tue May 10, 2011 2:17 pm

please add this thread to the satson manual

Mercado_Negro · Post by **Mercado_Negro** » Tue May 10, 2011 4:31 pm

@ samsam, kelvyn, mcmurphy and MFXx

You're welcome!

It's always great to discuss (in a relaxed and constructive way) different workflows and techniques.

Today I tracked a song (well, actually just vocals) and plugged the mic straight to my M-Audio Projectmix I/O. I put SatSon Buss in my recording track in REAPER (some people have Input Channels in other Hosts) with the saturation off and used its meters to adjust the mic level while the singer was warming up until the needle was barely touching -3dBVU... fun! I'm very pleased with the results since my levels are right there below 0dBVU which will make mixing much faster. While tracking with a preamp I do the same but it was way more comfortable this way so I'm gonna do it a lot!.

Cheers

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:30 pm

Whoa! How did I miss this one! Some serious competition in the console emulation field! I think this will be an auto-buy when I get paid...

Mercado_Negro: are you involved with this plug-in? I'm just curious how you came up with that detailed A/B/C mixing method? Seems like you know a lot about it already.

suecae_sounds · Post by **suecae_sounds** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:48 pm

Methinks Mercado_Negro is in fact the developer of Sonimus.

tibah · Post by **tibah** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:51 pm

The developer names himself pylorca as far as I know. Pretty active poster over at gearslutz.

As I couldn't resist I did spend the whole day just with Satson and I also prefer having it as last insert in the chain. However, working with the output compensation and just dial in some mofo works quite good too.

Mercado_Negro · Post by **Mercado_Negro** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:57 pm

bduffy wrote:Whoa! How did I miss this one! Some serious competition in the console emulation field! I think this will be an auto-buy when I get paid...

Mercado_Negro: are you involved with this plug-in? I'm just curious how you came up with that detailed A/B/C mixing method? Seems like you know a lot about it already.

I was part of the beta test team while Diego (pylorca) was tunning it but those A/B/C methods are just workflows I've adopted (though I'm always using C) since I started working with Nebula and then VCC. I just tried to create methodologies to work faster and get good results while keeping the same signal flow I'd use in a real console (though experimentation is always fun!).

Cheers

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:02 pm

Mercado_Negro wrote:
bduffy wrote:Whoa! How did I miss this one! Some serious competition in the console emulation field! I think this will be an auto-buy when I get paid...

Mercado_Negro: are you involved with this plug-in? I'm just curious how you came up with that detailed A/B/C mixing method? Seems like you know a lot about it already.
I was part of the beta test team while Diego (pylorca) was tunning it but those A/B/C methods are just workflows I've adopted (though I'm always using C) since I started working with Nebula and then VCC. I just tried to create methodologies to work faster and get good results while keeping the same signal flow I'd use in a real console (though experimentation is always fun!).

Cheers

Cool, thanks. It can get kind of confusing, this in-the-box analog flow; you start forgetting which one is the chicken and which one is the egg!

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:31 pm

MFXxx wrote:Not a new idea from memory as I think this was being looked into a few decades back.

Actually, if I understood the discussion in the computer section (where I was looking for a new GPU for these purposes) right, the first UAD cards were based upon GPU chips for DSP as well.

MFXxx wrote:Wonder if this would have an impact on Windows7 users with Aero and such like features. If generic will certainly see an increase in multi graphics cards in machines heehee. Due to the conversion and signal path I am guessing this would be used more for rendering than live mixing?

At the moment, live mixing (as in "on stage") is a bit moot since the latency is too high. For latency compensated hosts, it can work in realtime environments. Acustica Audio for example is constantly working on their Nebula engine to push even more boundaries.

Running Win7 wth Aero or similar hosts shouldn't be a problem. IIRC (and understand it like that as well, this OS desktop effect is based on 2D effects. GPU effects rather focus on the 3D chip and the GPU RAM.

Just take a look around on KVR, I'm fairly sure you'll find the one or another thread, since this topic is on a whole different ballpark indeed.

Mercado_Negro wrote:I'm very pleased with the results since my levels are right there below 0dBVU which will make mixing much faster. While tracking with a preamp I do the same but it was way more comfortable this way so I'm gonna do it a lot!.

Probably won't tell you anything new here, Mercado. But I'm sure it might be for some of the readers.

This example is why I wrote in the VCC thread how to do the same with just a highly configurable VST plugin like PSP Vintage Meter or the more "accourate" PPMulator by zplane - and then go from there.

Just set it up to -18dB (RMS) as reference level, integration time to 300ms and you're set. Since the PEAK value can be way higher than the RMS value, you should think of a suitable headroom of the usual known +12dB, resulting in a quick and dirty 3-color-indicator digital peak meter as additional guide.

In my case, I setup Cubase to have the "green zone" ranging from infinity to -18dBFS, the yellow zone between -18dBFS and -6dBFS, the red zone (aka clipping) starting with -6dBFS until upper end. For the summing bus, a signal up to -1dBFS digital peak is allowed if not exported to 16bit.

So if I record at -18dBFS = 0VU (while -18dB would mean RMS, measured with an integration time of 300ms), or trim the signal down to 0VU (again, -18dB RMS), the signal's digital peak should ideally hover between -18dBFS digital peak and -6dBFS digital peak. All depending on the program material of course (snare has less RMS than a kick for example due to the too short signal for the measurement).

Ideally, the signal hotspot is around -18dB RMS with +/- 1dB. So if you then add <younameit>, you have a good source material that barely needs gain/trim, if ever.

It all has it's benefits as well:
- a proper gain staging taking place
- no clipping on the channel itself (also good if old "fixed" bitrate plugins are used on top of float mathematics) and therefore having and excellent headroom
- a great fader resolution (good for controllers like Behringer BCF)
- if mixed carefully, no clipping on the summing bus while having a max RMS value of -12dB at the same time, no need for master fader compensation or a limiter
- simpler hardware integration

But also it's setbacks - for example:
- non -18dB RMS calibrated plugins need more gain or higher threshold settings (BootEQmkII comes to mind with the saturation mode or any other standard digital compressor), here you could reach your plugin's limits fairly quick
- you need an additional VU for proper measurement, most hosts have digital meters only

Ton of technical stuff, agreed. But IMO essential knowledge.
And just my personal 2c on that topic.

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Tue May 10, 2011 8:57 pm

Sorry, did he say there was going to be a demo version?

lightsfadelow · Post by **lightsfadelow** » Tue May 10, 2011 9:08 pm

No demo version I've heard of. For $39 I decided to just take the plunge sight-unseen. I'm even more speculative since I'm buying on the promise of x64 and haven't even bothered to download the x86 version I have access to. Although I could probably do that just to use in Sound Forge for some tests.

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Tue May 10, 2011 9:28 pm

Yeah, I'd just be curious to try something like this out first. The price is more than auto-buyable, though. Probably will. Just like to test it out, check for phase issues, etc, although I trust this dev implicitly from the excellent SonEQ.

MFXxx · Post by **MFXxx** » Tue May 10, 2011 9:50 pm

bduffy wrote:Yeah, I'd just be curious to try something like this out first. The price is more than auto-buyable, though. Probably will. Just like to test it out, check for phase issues, etc, although I trust this dev implicitly from the excellent SonEQ.

Bet you buy it once you apply it

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Tue May 10, 2011 9:52 pm

MFXxx wrote:
bduffy wrote:Yeah, I'd just be curious to try something like this out first. The price is more than auto-buyable, though. Probably will. Just like to test it out, check for phase issues, etc, although I trust this dev implicitly from the excellent SonEQ.
Bet you buy it once you apply it

That's an awesome slogan:

"BET YOU BUY, ONCE YOU APPLY!!"

lightsfadelow · Post by **lightsfadelow** » Wed May 11, 2011 12:58 am

Speaking of catchy things, with a company named Sonimus, I think that Diego should release a Limiter called Maximus. Sonimus Maximus just has a good ring to it, like a Greek Emperor.

zeep · Post by **zeep** » Wed May 11, 2011 1:27 am

Here's hoping that Diego's next project is a Buss Compressor. I have a feeling it will kick ass, like his other plugins.

Back OT, Some questions.
Can somebody explain to me (again) why Satson's Channel plugins don't stream audio internally to the Buss plugin? I understand that it works fine now (normal DAW routing), but shouldn't a console emulation emulate the complete path from gainstage to buss? Does the VCC do that or does it also leave the audio routing over to the DAW?
I don't mean to say that such is the only-, or best way to emulate it but somehow i was under the impression that console emulating ment plugins takeing over the audiostream from Channel to Bus.

KVR Audio

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