I'm curious why the Receptor prices are 2 times more expensive here in Euro's then when i would buy a Receptor in the US (in dollars).
I wonder what other Europe customers think about it and your experience with warranty and such.
I am living in the Netherlands which has no official dealers and no stores that sell Receptors. A store in Germany (Thomann) has some units (a good store btw), but they have no pro+ units.
Btw, i know the website talks about a dealer in my country, but they aren't in my country. They are located in Belgium. They also didn't respond to my mail. I also noticed some dealers or ppl related to Muse Research like Digital Audio Service in Germany also stopped selling Receptors. Is the company going to stop here in Europe?
Receptor Prices Europe + future Muse Research?
-
- KVRer
- 12 posts since 26 Aug, 2008
-
Bryan@MuseResearch Bryan@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9067
- MUSEician
- 618 posts since 18 Sep, 2003 from Silicon Valley
Hi John
Given that we just finished debuting the RECEPTOR 2+ line in Europe at the Musik Messe show, we certainly do intend to sell Receptors in Europe. You bring up a very difficult topic that is actually quite complex, but it is important to realize that its not necessarily Muse Research who is causing the difficulties.
For example, I recently purchased some appliances for our kitchen. We decided to go with the Miele brand of products, because we like the design and quality. Given that I travel to Germany for the Musik Messe and my wife is European, we could easily ask some friends to purchase the unit for us, crate it up, and send it over, because many of the German products are nearly 2X more expensive in the US than they are over there. Why is that?
The reason is that 1) the product has to be shipped to the US, 2) the product has to go through customs which requires paying the import duties, 3) the product needs to be warehoused by the US distributor who also needs to make enough product to support and service the product over here, and 4) the US dealer needs to make their fair so that they can show you the product and I can check it out before putting it in my kitchen.
In the end, we paid full price for the Miele appliances from our local US dealer - almost 2X as much as it costs in Germany. Why? Because we didn't want to have to deal with what would happen if we needed support, or the product needed repair. And guess what? The product HAS had some issues, and twice we have had to contact the dealer and distributor to get it fixed. Boy are we glad we purchased it through the local dealer!!
The same thing happens in reverse with Receptor. We ship it to Europe (average cost is $250 for shipping by air). It lands in Europe and requires paying import duties (which can add another 14% to the cost). So the price is already significantly higher than buying it in the US, and its sitting in some port in Europe. Now it needs to be shipped to a warehouse by truck (more shipping expense), where the distributor needs to advertise, sell, support, and service the product, so they make some money in order to do that. And then the dealer purchases it, and marks it up so they can stay in business, and finally... the country in which it is sold adds anywhere from 16 to 20% for their VAT / MSWT sales tax, which is traditionally included in the sales price in Europe (it is added on after the fact in the US).
So there are two ways to look at this: One is to be angry a product exported into Europe (or a European product imported into the US) is way more expensive than buying it in the country of origin. Or you can look at it from the fact that there are several people who have to be involved in taking a product from the country of origin and putting it on display in your local country, and they have to make some money along the way or it simply doesn't make sense for them to offer it to you. They are there for you to support you before and after the sale... and they need to put bread on the table!
And even when you think you can save some money buy importing it yourself, you see the savings aren't as big as you might think they are: if you flew over to LA and bought it at West LA Music, you will still have to pay our sales tax (now 9.5%), you'd have to pay excess luggage fee to ship it (maybe $100, not including your airfare), if you don't want to get in trouble with customs you need to declare it when you land back at your country and pay the import duty (10 to 20% depending on your country) and then if you have any issues with it, you'd need to send it back to us in the US to sort out since the warranty is only valid in the country it was purchased... which is a whole other hassle. Its one thing to buy a pair of blue jeans or a pair of Nikes when overseas, but do you really want to do that with a sophisticated music instrument?
So what I'm really trying to say is that I understand your issue, but this situation is not at all unique to Muse Research products. Whenever my wife wants a tin of real English Heinz baked beans, we pay about $3.00 US at the English Food Shoppe for the very same product you buy at Sainsbury's for 59 pence!!!
Best Regards
Bryan
Given that we just finished debuting the RECEPTOR 2+ line in Europe at the Musik Messe show, we certainly do intend to sell Receptors in Europe. You bring up a very difficult topic that is actually quite complex, but it is important to realize that its not necessarily Muse Research who is causing the difficulties.
For example, I recently purchased some appliances for our kitchen. We decided to go with the Miele brand of products, because we like the design and quality. Given that I travel to Germany for the Musik Messe and my wife is European, we could easily ask some friends to purchase the unit for us, crate it up, and send it over, because many of the German products are nearly 2X more expensive in the US than they are over there. Why is that?
The reason is that 1) the product has to be shipped to the US, 2) the product has to go through customs which requires paying the import duties, 3) the product needs to be warehoused by the US distributor who also needs to make enough product to support and service the product over here, and 4) the US dealer needs to make their fair so that they can show you the product and I can check it out before putting it in my kitchen.
In the end, we paid full price for the Miele appliances from our local US dealer - almost 2X as much as it costs in Germany. Why? Because we didn't want to have to deal with what would happen if we needed support, or the product needed repair. And guess what? The product HAS had some issues, and twice we have had to contact the dealer and distributor to get it fixed. Boy are we glad we purchased it through the local dealer!!
The same thing happens in reverse with Receptor. We ship it to Europe (average cost is $250 for shipping by air). It lands in Europe and requires paying import duties (which can add another 14% to the cost). So the price is already significantly higher than buying it in the US, and its sitting in some port in Europe. Now it needs to be shipped to a warehouse by truck (more shipping expense), where the distributor needs to advertise, sell, support, and service the product, so they make some money in order to do that. And then the dealer purchases it, and marks it up so they can stay in business, and finally... the country in which it is sold adds anywhere from 16 to 20% for their VAT / MSWT sales tax, which is traditionally included in the sales price in Europe (it is added on after the fact in the US).
So there are two ways to look at this: One is to be angry a product exported into Europe (or a European product imported into the US) is way more expensive than buying it in the country of origin. Or you can look at it from the fact that there are several people who have to be involved in taking a product from the country of origin and putting it on display in your local country, and they have to make some money along the way or it simply doesn't make sense for them to offer it to you. They are there for you to support you before and after the sale... and they need to put bread on the table!
And even when you think you can save some money buy importing it yourself, you see the savings aren't as big as you might think they are: if you flew over to LA and bought it at West LA Music, you will still have to pay our sales tax (now 9.5%), you'd have to pay excess luggage fee to ship it (maybe $100, not including your airfare), if you don't want to get in trouble with customs you need to declare it when you land back at your country and pay the import duty (10 to 20% depending on your country) and then if you have any issues with it, you'd need to send it back to us in the US to sort out since the warranty is only valid in the country it was purchased... which is a whole other hassle. Its one thing to buy a pair of blue jeans or a pair of Nikes when overseas, but do you really want to do that with a sophisticated music instrument?
So what I'm really trying to say is that I understand your issue, but this situation is not at all unique to Muse Research products. Whenever my wife wants a tin of real English Heinz baked beans, we pay about $3.00 US at the English Food Shoppe for the very same product you buy at Sainsbury's for 59 pence!!!
Best Regards
Bryan
-
- KVRist
- 269 posts since 23 May, 2008 from Lake Stevens, WA, USA
My first thought, when I saw Bryan's mention of a $250 shipping cost from the US to Europe, was that that could not be. I was wrong! I checked the cost to ship a 20 pound item by air from my corner of the US to Frankfurt, and yes, $257! I am shocked - I had no idea! 
-
- KVRian
- 691 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Silicon Valley
Wow! Almost the price for a (highly discounted) seat on the plane. I suppose the Receptor doesn't get meals and is charged for checked baggage! 
-
- KVRian
- 781 posts since 25 May, 2006
You can have it much cheaper not using UPS, but USPS Priority Mail International - then it only costs around $70 from the US to Germany
I'm always using USPS to order goods from the states, it takes a bit longer to ship, but if you don't mind it's well worth the difference; plus there are also less fees then because it's handled by the national post then in your own country and not by a private shipping company
My experience is than in most cases ordering directly from the states still is much much cheaper in the sum, even with added shipping costs and import fees - especially when the dollar is low (in fact it's aways...); but as Bryan said you only should do it for goods that are not expected to have issues - but regarding Receptor I really don't think you will have, I hope Muse agrees
I'm always using USPS to order goods from the states, it takes a bit longer to ship, but if you don't mind it's well worth the difference; plus there are also less fees then because it's handled by the national post then in your own country and not by a private shipping company
My experience is than in most cases ordering directly from the states still is much much cheaper in the sum, even with added shipping costs and import fees - especially when the dollar is low (in fact it's aways...); but as Bryan said you only should do it for goods that are not expected to have issues - but regarding Receptor I really don't think you will have, I hope Muse agrees
-
Bryan@MuseResearch Bryan@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9067
- MUSEician
- 618 posts since 18 Sep, 2003 from Silicon Valley
Hi PeterPeter999 wrote:You can have it much cheaper not using UPS, but USPS Priority Mail International - then it only costs around $70 from the US to Germany
I'm always using USPS to order goods from the states, it takes a bit longer to ship, but if you don't mind it's well worth the difference; plus there are also less fees then because it's handled by the national post then in your own country and not by a private shipping company
My experience is than in most cases ordering directly from the states still is much much cheaper in the sum, even with added shipping costs and import fees - especially when the dollar is low (in fact it's aways...); but as Bryan said you only should do it for goods that are not expected to have issues - but regarding Receptor I really don't think you will have, I hope Muse agrees
Okay, I'm going to answer this personally, and so my answer does not necessarily reflect the views of Muse Research or any of the other employees at the company.
My point is the issue is a bit larger than you are letting on. Let's take the extreme: everyone in Europe starts buying stuff direct from the US, China, Japan, etc. The follow-on effects is that 1) stores won't carry products that are being imported directly, 2) forget about support, 3) forget about warranty service, and 4) say hello to a lot of shops and distributors who no longer can stay in business, which means eventually 5) decreases in everyone's standards of living.
It really is an interesting topic: why do you need distributors and retailers AT ALL? Why isn't everything bought directly from the manufacturer? I'm told that clothing has at least an 8 to 10 X markup over the cost of the goods... so that pair of Diesel jeans you buy at Kaufhof for 100 euros really costs 10 euros to make. Why not buy it directly from YangHong Soft Goods Manufacturing in Guandong who made them? (prices and locations are made up, by the way). Because you might actually want to try them on before you buy them, and you might want to be able to go back to the store if the zipper stops working or the stitching comes undone.
The fact is, whether we like or not, a HUGE part of our local economies are based on retail trade, and trade, by definition is the practice is buying goods, marking them up, and reselling them. When all those resellers go away - and we see these trends every day with Amazon and ITunes and the like - then goods might get cheaper, but the overall economy, and availability of products in general suffers mightily.
I personally really miss record/CD stores...I used to find all sorts of interesting new artists by simply browsing around the store. And the fact that Borders here in the US is closing a lot of stores due to financial problems makes me sad...Sure I can buy my books from Amazon and my CDs from Itunes, but its not the same, and it also is concentrating the wealth amongst just a few huge companies instead of spreading it among many smaller and typically locally owned companies. (Aside: yes, I realize you can argue that Borders had it coming, that they brought big box retailing to communities and in the process drove mom and pop bookstores out of business, but the point I'm making is being able to browse a book store on a Friday night with your sweetie and a cup of coffee in your hand is very different than looking up a book on your computer in your bedroom with your dirty socks on the floor and waiting a week and a half for the thing to show up in the post)
So, yes, legally there is no reason you can't buy something wherever its cheapest and bypass normal distribution- i.e. "the middleman". But I believe that the middleman often serves a real purpose, and that being able to try something before you buy it is valuable, and assuming they are doing their job, being able to purchase something and feel like the person who sold it to you is going to ensure you are satisfied with your purchase DOES have value.
-
- KVRian
- 781 posts since 25 May, 2006
Hi Bryan 
Well, I don't say anything at all against retailers; I always prefer buying from a home based retailer if a) the product is available at all and b) the price is halfway decent
I for sure won't import something directly from the us if the difference is just 200 or 300 dollars; but if the difference is 1000 dollars, then you really start considering, because you feel ripped off looking at the original prices in the us; and often retailers too only have discontinued products, and you can get the newest only from the us (or you must wait another year until they are available in Europe)
Unfortunately this is too often the case, and even more the product even isn't available at all in your country; then you could import it from a neighbouring country, but then you have the exact same situation regarding repair and support as you had importing it directly from the us
So in the end it's the market that decides, buyers will always consider advantages and disadvantages of where to buy something, may it be the price or offer of support; you can't take that decision off the buyers; as said, if I pay $300 more for a product in my country from a retailer that gives me some support then I will always prefer this way; but if you pay $1000 more, and not even get some good support (which unfortunately quite often is the case), then it's nothing than natural to take a bit of risk and import it by yourself
Of course this decision always depends on the vat rates of your own country; in the european union these unfortunately often are very high (19% germany, 25% sweden) which is close to rip-off imho; so the difference could get lower there (it's only 8% in my own country)
At least regarding Receptor I always hear the same, when I recommend it to german customers: Great device, but I can't afford it! (looking at the prices at their local dealer). Some may check then what a direct import would cost them, and if they think it's too expensive and too comlicated they simply leave it and don't buy anything at all, or look for a cheaper alternative. Moreover, often only the most expensive models are available, and no standard model, which could go beyond the psychological price border which says: I can afford it. Let's face it: The basic model ($1699) in Euros (directly converted, without taxes) is 1199 in Euros, which would be a no-rainer price for many; Even with added tax and all it could be Euro 1699 at the highest (so same euro price as dollar price), which still could look very good and affordable to many. I think you would sell a lot of these. But there's no such offer, nowhere (if, then tell me, and I will forward it to potential buyers). So for many in Germany or generally Europe - unfortunately - Receptor has the status of a) too often something they even don't know or b) a very cool, but high-end and non-affordable product, like all the american analog synths in the early 80ies
I don't want to get too political here, but looking at the trade deflict of the us towards europe which was around 80 billion dollars in 2010 (whole world: about 700 billions), despite the deep dollar, I think there's something going wrong - I think it's mainly the european union who is to blame because of its extremely high import taxes; but as said, I don't wanna get too political here, I simply think it's a bit a pity that products from the US still are that expensive in Europe, although the US (and too Muse Research) could well profitate from exports looking at the economical situation in the states
I guess I'm not the only one thinking like this
Receptor is a great product, and it would deserve more buyers in Europe (but maybe I'm completely wrong with my analysis)
P.S: Regarding CD stores I think it's something else - nonone anymore (except for me and you maybe) is bying CDs, especially the younger, which is a pity indeed
---
Well, I don't say anything at all against retailers; I always prefer buying from a home based retailer if a) the product is available at all and b) the price is halfway decent
I for sure won't import something directly from the us if the difference is just 200 or 300 dollars; but if the difference is 1000 dollars, then you really start considering, because you feel ripped off looking at the original prices in the us; and often retailers too only have discontinued products, and you can get the newest only from the us (or you must wait another year until they are available in Europe)
Unfortunately this is too often the case, and even more the product even isn't available at all in your country; then you could import it from a neighbouring country, but then you have the exact same situation regarding repair and support as you had importing it directly from the us
So in the end it's the market that decides, buyers will always consider advantages and disadvantages of where to buy something, may it be the price or offer of support; you can't take that decision off the buyers; as said, if I pay $300 more for a product in my country from a retailer that gives me some support then I will always prefer this way; but if you pay $1000 more, and not even get some good support (which unfortunately quite often is the case), then it's nothing than natural to take a bit of risk and import it by yourself
Of course this decision always depends on the vat rates of your own country; in the european union these unfortunately often are very high (19% germany, 25% sweden) which is close to rip-off imho; so the difference could get lower there (it's only 8% in my own country)
At least regarding Receptor I always hear the same, when I recommend it to german customers: Great device, but I can't afford it! (looking at the prices at their local dealer). Some may check then what a direct import would cost them, and if they think it's too expensive and too comlicated they simply leave it and don't buy anything at all, or look for a cheaper alternative. Moreover, often only the most expensive models are available, and no standard model, which could go beyond the psychological price border which says: I can afford it. Let's face it: The basic model ($1699) in Euros (directly converted, without taxes) is 1199 in Euros, which would be a no-rainer price for many; Even with added tax and all it could be Euro 1699 at the highest (so same euro price as dollar price), which still could look very good and affordable to many. I think you would sell a lot of these. But there's no such offer, nowhere (if, then tell me, and I will forward it to potential buyers). So for many in Germany or generally Europe - unfortunately - Receptor has the status of a) too often something they even don't know or b) a very cool, but high-end and non-affordable product, like all the american analog synths in the early 80ies
I don't want to get too political here, but looking at the trade deflict of the us towards europe which was around 80 billion dollars in 2010 (whole world: about 700 billions), despite the deep dollar, I think there's something going wrong - I think it's mainly the european union who is to blame because of its extremely high import taxes; but as said, I don't wanna get too political here, I simply think it's a bit a pity that products from the US still are that expensive in Europe, although the US (and too Muse Research) could well profitate from exports looking at the economical situation in the states
I guess I'm not the only one thinking like this
Receptor is a great product, and it would deserve more buyers in Europe (but maybe I'm completely wrong with my analysis)
P.S: Regarding CD stores I think it's something else - nonone anymore (except for me and you maybe) is bying CDs, especially the younger, which is a pity indeed
---
Last edited by Peter999 on Tue May 17, 2011 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- KVRist
- 41 posts since 16 Mar, 2004
Well, I've read the/ your post completely and I'm surprised.Bryan@MuseResearch wrote:Hi John
Given that we just finished debuting the RECEPTOR 2+ line in Europe at the Musik Messe show, we certainly do intend to sell Receptors in Europe. You bring up a very difficult topic that is actually quite complex, but it is important to realize that its not necessarily Muse Research who is causing the difficulties.
Best Regards
Bryan
There's absolutely no reason why a Receptor in germany (as an example) costs twice the price as in the US.
There's absolutely no reason any product from the US costs twice the price here.
Distributors like Thomann, which is a great dealer as is Music Store Cologne,- buy larger quantities of gear,- not only one piece.
There is also no reason any single piece of gear has to go by plane,- so the example of shipping costs is only valid for 1 piece going by plane and ordered by a european customer directly from the seller in the US.
Why doesn't a batch of products go by ship form the US to europe/germany to keep costs low ?
A Kurzweil PC3K8, which is a brandnew product, costs USD 4.199.- (suggested retail price) in the US.
http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/Product.php?id=208
It costs EUR 2.490.- in germany, which includes all taxes, shipping, customs (6%) and VAT (19%),- and it ships free to my home door in addition.
Music Store offers the same price and we can expect the price will be lower in future,- as always.
With both mailorder dealers, I get a extended 3 year warranty and can return the product within 2 weeks (31 days @ Music Store).
So, the (street-)price difference USD to EUR is ~39%
Receptor 2 Pro Max costs EUR 3.190.- here
http://www.thomann.de/de/muse_research_ ... _2_max.htm
Buying from your website is USD 3.199.-
http://www.plugorama.com/configurator.php
If we compare the Kurzweil price to the Receptor price in EUR,- it should be possible to buy a Receptor Pro Max for ~ EUR 2.000.- incl. all taxes and shipping and free delivery to my home.
O.k.,- there might be some differences in deals between distributors and manufacturers, but there's no reason a Receptor must cost almost the same in EUR than in Dollars.
USD 3.199.- is EUR 2.253.06 today.
1EUR = 1.41985 USD
1USD = 0.7043 EUR
http://www.gocurrency.com/v2/dorate.php ... =Umrechnen
Please explain
thx
PeWe
-
- KVRist
- 197 posts since 23 Jan, 2006 from Ontario, Canada
As a Receptor dealer in Canada, I know first hand about this topic but will only say a bit because of contractual agreements between Muse and it's dealers.
I will say that the Kurzweil is not the best choice for comparison, since it is a standard item in many music stores - compared to Receptor, which is a specialty item with very, very few dealers.
Also, "Kurzweil is a registered trademark of Young Chang Co., Ltd.", according to their website, so I guess that they're made in Korea. It's a product that goes from Asia to the US, and from Asia to Europe, NOT hand-built by a small team in the US and then shipped to Europe. In addition, a company the size of Young Chang can "afford" to set a worldwide price, even if they make less money in some markets. And they have shipping methods in place for moving their pianos around the world, and have been doing it for decades.
Comparing Receptor pricing to ANY product that is normally found in music stores is going to lead to this problem. Standard stuff like Fender, Yamaha, Gibson, Roland, etc, etc, or any other item made by a division of a corporation are all different from hand-made boutique items like Receptor.
By the way, shipping by sea is very slow (months in some cases), and costs a lot, since you need to fill a whole container (20 or 40 footer) or at least several palettes.
But if you can get 100 customers to pay up front for R2+ Standard Receptors, then I will gladly go to the trouble of arranging ocean shipping. And I'm sure that Muse would be happy to hire extra bodies to build them.
I will say that the Kurzweil is not the best choice for comparison, since it is a standard item in many music stores - compared to Receptor, which is a specialty item with very, very few dealers.
Also, "Kurzweil is a registered trademark of Young Chang Co., Ltd.", according to their website, so I guess that they're made in Korea. It's a product that goes from Asia to the US, and from Asia to Europe, NOT hand-built by a small team in the US and then shipped to Europe. In addition, a company the size of Young Chang can "afford" to set a worldwide price, even if they make less money in some markets. And they have shipping methods in place for moving their pianos around the world, and have been doing it for decades.
Comparing Receptor pricing to ANY product that is normally found in music stores is going to lead to this problem. Standard stuff like Fender, Yamaha, Gibson, Roland, etc, etc, or any other item made by a division of a corporation are all different from hand-made boutique items like Receptor.
By the way, shipping by sea is very slow (months in some cases), and costs a lot, since you need to fill a whole container (20 or 40 footer) or at least several palettes.
But if you can get 100 customers to pay up front for R2+ Standard Receptors, then I will gladly go to the trouble of arranging ocean shipping. And I'm sure that Muse would be happy to hire extra bodies to build them.
Greg Holmes
Retailer: Acoustic Image, BassLab, Muse Receptor, MIDIjet, Rayzoon Jamstix, and more...
http://www.ghservices.com/
http://www.gregholmes.com/
Retailer: Acoustic Image, BassLab, Muse Receptor, MIDIjet, Rayzoon Jamstix, and more...
http://www.ghservices.com/
http://www.gregholmes.com/
-
Bryan@MuseResearch Bryan@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9067
- MUSEician
- 618 posts since 18 Sep, 2003 from Silicon Valley
Everything you say is true, Greg, with the addition that Kurzweil likely has its own distribution in major markets, so the cost is kind of "built in" to the product.gregh1 wrote:
But if you can get 100 customers to pay up front for R2+ Standard Receptors, then I will gladly go to the trouble of arranging ocean shipping. And I'm sure that Muse would be happy to hire extra bodies to build them.
And as soon as you get that order for 100 R2+, we'll get them all crated up and ready to ship!
Bryan