DIY Lapsteel thoughts...

[GaryG]

Thinking about building a basic lapsteel-type instrument.

Would very much be something for me to mess around with so not planning anything elaborate (as if my woodworking skills would up to that anyway... ) Like the idea of building it from recycled junk too.

Have a couple of blocks of wood that may do for a body, some pickups and tuners (courtesy of the very generous IanB). Obviously need a bridge and nut next.

So, how about some bolts? I'm thinking like the bridge of a jaguar or jazzmaster, maybe just use a three or four inch bolt, maybe with filed grooves if necessary (can't see why, will be subject to a lot less sideways force than a normal guitar bridge)

Don't understand why the bridge should be adjustable as long as it's accurately fitted, no need to adjust intonation....? Right?

So, any thoughts welcome...

cheers,
g.

[Hink]

do you remeber an old member 'Lunch Money'? He built one and perhaps with creative searching it might be founin these pages somewhere

[GaryG]

Sure I remember Lunch Money, top guy.

I'll have a poke around.

edit: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194117

Very cool. Basically the sort of instrument I'm thinking about; simple shape, two bits of wood (top and bottom) etc.

[Hink]

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &highlight

I found this from 2007 that references and talks some about it and a pic, there was another thread though

[megadude]

Thinking about building a basic lapsteel-type instrument.

Don't understand why the bridge should be adjustable as long as it's accurately fitted, no need to adjust intonation....? Right?

So, any thoughts welcome...

cheers,
g.

is that true? what if the wood warps ever so slightly? will the bridge then need to be adjusted to? (I don't know the answer to this, just seems like something to consider.)

[GaryG]

I dunno, that's why I'm asking...

Obviously your day to day intonation is down to you and the slide, no frets to worry about. But, yeah, interstring intonation...? Maybe a simple adjustable bridge would be better (something like a wraparound).

But that's the beauty of this build, no aspirations to create some work of art so I can just try things out and rip them out if they turn out sucky.

[AdmiralQuality]

Don't understand why the bridge should be adjustable as long as it's accurately fitted, no need to adjust intonation....? Right?

You're still playing chords with the slide, even if they're open chords. As you move the slide down the neck away from the nut, the chord will get less and less accurate unless you've got a bridge that compensates.

The only time intonation wouldn't matter would be if you were only playing one note at a time. Otherwise, all the regular reasons for needing to adjust intonation apply.

[Hink]

Don't understand why the bridge should be adjustable as long as it's accurately fitted, no need to adjust intonation....? Right?

You're still playing chords with the slide, even if they're open chords. As you move the slide down the neck away from the nut, the chord will get less and less accurate unless you've got a bridge that compensates.

The only time intonation wouldn't matter would be if you were only playing one note at a time. Otherwise, all the regular reasons for needing to adjust intonation apply.

but the slide has the unique ability to not play at exactly 90° (fret/string contact unless you're bending is pretty much just that, 90°) so even if the intonation is perfect chances are the player will not be and of course vice versa. So a lap steel is not as precise as a fretted guitar and in fact this 'sloppiness' if you will is part of the appeal of slide playing imho. This also means the player has to rely on visual cues as 'rough markers' and the ears for fine tuning.

Now I'm not saying I wouldn't have adjustable saddles because building a bridge with adjustable saddles is no problem even if you want the spacing to more than that of a regular guitar. Quite simply taking the saddles from any bridge like a strat style hardtail or a bass (not stop bars) and building a new bridge to hold them should do the trick. But I think a fixed bridge would work. Proof of concept? A lot of slide players use acoustic guitars and they have a fixed bridge

[AdmiralQuality]

Don't understand why the bridge should be adjustable as long as it's accurately fitted, no need to adjust intonation....? Right?

You're still playing chords with the slide, even if they're open chords. As you move the slide down the neck away from the nut, the chord will get less and less accurate unless you've got a bridge that compensates.

The only time intonation wouldn't matter would be if you were only playing one note at a time. Otherwise, all the regular reasons for needing to adjust intonation apply.

but the slide has the unique ability to not play at exactly 90° (fret/string contact unless you're bending is pretty much just that, 90°) so even if the intonation is perfect chances are the player will not be and of course vice versa. So a lap steel is not as precise as a fretted guitar and in fact this 'sloppiness' if you will is part of the appeal of slide playing imho. This also means the player has to rely on visual cues as 'rough markers' and the ears for fine tuning.

Now I'm not saying I wouldn't have adjustable saddles because building a bridge with adjustable saddles is no problem even if you want the spacing to more than that of a regular guitar. Quite simply taking the saddles from any bridge like a strat style hardtail or a bass (not stop bars) and building a new bridge to hold them should do the trick. But I think a fixed bridge would work. Proof of concept? A lot of slide players use acoustic guitars and they have a fixed bridge

Strat hardtail has the same saddle adjustments as the "tremolo" bridge. But yes, using an existing adjustable bridge is probably the way to go.

And yes, you could compensate somewhat by angling the slide. But guitar intonations typically aren't a straight line. The unwound strings usually result in a "bump" in the intonation making it more of a zig-zag shape. The fixed bridge saddles on most modern acoustics are shaped this way as well.

[Hink]

Don't understand why the bridge should be adjustable as long as it's accurately fitted, no need to adjust intonation....? Right?

You're still playing chords with the slide, even if they're open chords. As you move the slide down the neck away from the nut, the chord will get less and less accurate unless you've got a bridge that compensates.

The only time intonation wouldn't matter would be if you were only playing one note at a time. Otherwise, all the regular reasons for needing to adjust intonation apply.

but the slide has the unique ability to not play at exactly 90° (fret/string contact unless you're bending is pretty much just that, 90°) so even if the intonation is perfect chances are the player will not be and of course vice versa. So a lap steel is not as precise as a fretted guitar and in fact this 'sloppiness' if you will is part of the appeal of slide playing imho. This also means the player has to rely on visual cues as 'rough markers' and the ears for fine tuning.

Now I'm not saying I wouldn't have adjustable saddles because building a bridge with adjustable saddles is no problem even if you want the spacing to more than that of a regular guitar. Quite simply taking the saddles from any bridge like a strat style hardtail or a bass (not stop bars) and building a new bridge to hold them should do the trick. But I think a fixed bridge would work. Proof of concept? A lot of slide players use acoustic guitars and they have a fixed bridge

Strat hardtail has the same saddle adjustments as the "tremolo" bridge. But yes, using an existing adjustable bridge is probably the way to go.

And yes, you could compensate somewhat by angling the slide. But guitar intonations typically aren't a straight line. The unwound strings usually result in a "bump" in the intonation making it more of a zig-zag shape. The fixed bridge saddles on most modern acoustics are shaped this way as well.

I was not speaking about compensating, basically imperfect intonation is the nature of the beast when it comes to slide. You kind of say it yourself, most modern guitars compensate for the 'bump'...but slide playing is as old as the hills and often played on guitars that are not so accurate (in fact you'll never get perfect intonation with an acoustic).

I have no doubt with a machinst scale I could get the bridge (with a straight saddle) to within +/- 1/64" of where it should be which is a half turn of electric guitars intonation screws (I'm pretty sure they 32 threads per inch). The player will not be as accurate as that in their playing and that's the allure of slide, I guess it is a bit of compensating but I see it as compensating for how slide is played and not the instrument.

Of course the tuning used will make big differences as well

[AdmiralQuality]

I was not speaking about compensating, basically imperfect intonation is the nature of the beast when it comes to slide. You kind of say it yourself, most modern guitars compensate for the 'bump'...but slide playing is as old as the hills and often played on guitars that are not so accurate (in fact you'll never get perfect intonation with an acoustic).

I have no doubt with a machinst scale I could get the bridge (with a straight saddle) to within +/- 1/64" of where it should be which is a half turn of electric guitars intonation screws (I'm pretty sure they 32 threads per inch). The player will not be as accurate as that in their playing and that's the allure of slide, I guess it is a bit of compensating but I see it as compensating for how slide is played and not the instrument.

Of course the tuning used will make big differences as well

Yep. But the OP asked, so I just wanted to fill him in that slide isn't an instant cure for intonation.

But yes, you can do intonation at the bridge, or you can do it at the frets/slide.



But the problem with the fret/slide method is it assumes a straight line. Only adjustments at the bridge saddle can compensage for the "zig zag".

[Hink]

I was not speaking about compensating, basically imperfect intonation is the nature of the beast when it comes to slide. You kind of say it yourself, most modern guitars compensate for the 'bump'...but slide playing is as old as the hills and often played on guitars that are not so accurate (in fact you'll never get perfect intonation with an acoustic).

I have no doubt with a machinst scale I could get the bridge (with a straight saddle) to within +/- 1/64" of where it should be which is a half turn of electric guitars intonation screws (I'm pretty sure they 32 threads per inch). The player will not be as accurate as that in their playing and that's the allure of slide, I guess it is a bit of compensating but I see it as compensating for how slide is played and not the instrument.

Of course the tuning used will make big differences as well

But the problem with the fret/slide method is it assumes a straight line. Only adjustments at the bridge saddle can compensage for the "zig zag".

well I let you tell the guitarists that having been doing it for probably close to a century that it doesn't work

BTW I have one of these cool 'jet slides'

so I took a cheap accoustic (dean), yanked out the frets and filled them with wood filler (it has a a pick-up and pre-amp) and put steel strings on it. It has a very straight saddle and gets the job done quite nicely

[AdmiralQuality]

well I let you tell the guitarists that having been doing it for probably close to a century that it doesn't work

I love giving shit to centenarian guitarists. Bring 'em on!

Then there's the intonation on Buddy Holly's Strat...



http://www.buddyhollyonline.com/guitar.html

None!

So yes, YMMV. But the OP asked about intonation, and I'm just trying to point out that slides aren't an intonation cure-all.

[Hink]

well I let you tell the guitarists that having been doing it for probably close to a century that it doesn't work

I love giving shit to centenarian guitarists. Bring 'em on!

Then there's the intonation on Buddy Holly's Strat...



http://www.buddyhollyonline.com/guitar.html

None!

So yes, YMMV. But the OP asked about intonation, and I'm just trying to point out that slides aren't an intonation cure-all.

I didn't say they were, I said they are not accurate enough to make a big difference when it comes fairly fine adjustments vs the less than accurate stlye of playing. Once againg that's one allure of the slide, it's palyed by ear and feel (we wont even get into pedal steel) I'm not sure what Buddy Holly's strat has to do with anything. Apples and oranges, slide predates electric guitars

[Hink]

http://images.google.com/images?sourcei ... 86&bih=628

(make sure you check out the skateboard one )


images of lap steel guitars, plenty of both


(make sure you check out the skateboard one )