Your next guitar?

[Hink]

Oh, and good to see Hink back

dont be alarmed though if next week I'm not around much, my wife starts her vacation when she gets home tonight and I plan on spending as much of that time with her as I can

[susiwong]

Hello Hink,
we basically agree on most points re strings and trems, we just phrase it differently (I'm not a native speaker ).
When I use the term "stretching" it might not be technically accurate.
It's not stretching as in "making the string longer", it's more like pulling it tight, removing any tiny slack due to nut or string tree friction, loose winding on the tuners and similar.
And it's a constant subconscious process while playing, like we both describe in different words, though you can eliminate 90% of the issues in the first 15 mins after putting on new strings.
I was referring to the video where Verheyen makes a claim that is physically impossible, easy to check for everyone.
Still, doesn't matter, his forte is playing, not mechanical vectors.
And he is amazing ...
You sure use the claw to balance your horizontal trem position, using individual spring tension to selectively adjust individual string upbend range is voodoo.
Ymmv,
susiwong

[Hink]

I knew what you meant bt stretching tbh, but there are a lot people that believe they are physically stretching the strings. I say that I have a name for strings that heve been stretched, broken. (they will be very quickly) That's also the point about old strings, if the reason a string is not staying in tune is because of the string, well that string will soon be broken too. I was thinking about it and I can't remember when I could not get a guitar string to stay in tune and simply cannot remember once. I have changed entire sets because I broke one string and common sense tells me "well these strings have been on so long it wont be long before the rest start breaking".

If I had a machine shop that I could use I think one of the first things I would build would be a better claw system for whammy bars that had tension adjustments for each spring and instead of wood screws they would have a steel base and the tensioner screws plus the holes for them would be machine threads. (probably either 32 or 20 tpi)

[susiwong]

I knew what you meant bt stretching tbh, but there are a lot people that believe they are physically stretching the strings. I say that I have a name for strings that heve been stretched, broken. (they will be very quickly)

Like you say, with metal there's a certain "safety margin" which is called "elastical deformation" or something, where the metal piece returns to exactly the same shape as before, no damage done.
Beyond this margin, and it's an all-or-nothing phenomenon, we're looking at permanent deformation, no undo possible.
Cheers,
susiwong

[Uncle E]

probably somewhere in the nieghborhood of 100-200 times in my life someone would come into my store because they were having the old 'everytime I get one string in tune the rest are out' problem and in 5 minutes it was fixed by adjusting the the claw

What's the secret?

[Uncle E]

It's not stretching as in "making the string longer", it's more like pulling it tight, removing any tiny slack due to nut or string tree friction, loose winding on the tuners and similar.

Is there a video demonstrating what you consider to be proper string stretching technique? If not, would you mind making one? String tree friction is what screws me up.

You sure use the claw to balance your horizontal trem position, using individual spring tension to selectively adjust individual string upbend range is voodoo.

See, that's not what I took away from that video. The way I heard it is there's more tension coming from the low strings and so putting more tension on their corresponding springs allows the trem to hinge uniformly on the screws, thus returning the strings to pitch better.

[Hink]

probably somewhere in the nieghborhood of 100-200 times in my life someone would come into my store because they were having the old 'everytime I get one string in tune the rest are out' problem and in 5 minutes it was fixed by adjusting the the claw

What's the secret?

by using the claw screws/spring configuration to compensate for the tension of the strings, just like any fulcrum in order for there has to be balance on both sides. This method has worked for me from day I got my first floyd rose.

FWIW if I decide I want to do a pick-up change in a guitar with a floyd rose I do not remove the strings, I remove the springs, then the entire whammy, lay it out past the headstock, change the pick-ups, put the whammy back in and typically I never even loosen the locking nut and can fine tune it.

Until the internet came along I thought this was common knowledge and everybody did this with the claw, if the claw was not to be adjusted they would just put hooks to hold the springs to the body instead screws with a free moving claw

[Hink]

It's not stretching as in "making the string longer", it's more like pulling it tight, removing any tiny slack due to nut or string tree friction, loose winding on the tuners and similar.

Is there a video demonstrating what you consider to be proper string stretching technique? If not, would you mind making one? String tree friction is what screws me up.

You sure use the claw to balance your horizontal trem position, using individual spring tension to selectively adjust individual string upbend range is voodoo.

See, that's not what I took away from that video. The way I heard it is there's more tension coming from the low strings and so putting more tension on their corresponding springs allows the trem to hinge uniformly on the screws, thus returning the strings to pitch better.

I should watch the video however what you just said about tension on the lower strings is exactly what I am talking about. However I do this strictly by ear, I cannot say that I offset the claw by huge amounts but I do not measure it either to make sure it's straight. Also instead of the springs all being from one point to the same corresponding point on the other end (whammy block/claw) sometimes changing that configuration.

My last guitar came with the springs in the 1, 3, and 5 holes on the block but on the claw it was the 2, 3, and 4 hooks. That guitar was set up of course in standard tuning, I changed to a lower tuning (I like open Gm) which was less tension than standard, by moving the two outside springs from angling to the center and putting them to 1 and 5 on the claw it released some of the tension on those two springs and then a small amount of adjustment on the claw screws was all it needed. I was playing in my tuning within 5 minutes of getting the guitar

[trimph1]

probably somewhere in the nieghborhood of 100-200 times in my life someone would come into my store because they were having the old 'everytime I get one string in tune the rest are out' problem and in 5 minutes it was fixed by adjusting the the claw

What's the secret?

by using the claw screws/spring configuration to compensate for the tension of the strings, just like any fulcrum in order for there has to be balance on both sides. This method has worked for me from day I got my first floyd rose.

FWIW if I decide I want to do a pick-up change in a guitar with a floyd rose I do not remove the strings, I remove the springs, then the entire whammy, lay it out past the headstock, change the pick-ups, put the whammy back in and typically I never even loosen the locking nut and can fine tune it.

Until the internet came along I thought this was common knowledge and everybody did this with the claw, if the claw was not to be adjusted they would just put hooks to hold the springs to the body instead screws with a free moving claw

That was what I thought you did...but I was not going to gainsay it.

....mmmmmm...have you ever come across any stripped threads on those screws..and if so...what did you do to release them?

[Uncle E]

by using the claw screws/spring configuration to compensate for the tension of the strings, just like any fulcrum in order for there has to be balance on both sides. This method has worked for me from day I got my first floyd rose.

Sorry, I'm still not getting this. How is what you're doing different than how other guitars are set up?

FWIW if I decide I want to do a pick-up change in a guitar with a floyd rose I do not remove the strings, I remove the springs, then the entire whammy, lay it out past the headstock, change the pick-ups, put the whammy back in and typically I never even loosen the locking nut and can fine tune it.

Very cool! I'll try this when I air my Tone Zone.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

I don't really suffer tuning issues, So long as i pull the bar up if it has been abused by pushing down on it and vice versa by a very small amount it stays in tune for...well until i fiddle with the thing and put it out myself.

As you chaps know i do not have a non-locking equiped instrument (as the ESP got robbed and i have a thing in pieces that i have no reason to put back together...A pes laul cheap thing). Still i do setup and maintain friends guitars and they don't seem to suffer any tuning issues

Not claiming to be a setup genius or anything close mind. The things i do not like to see is 'string trees' as that smells of problems, Really like Musicmans as they are a doddle to do and sorting Les Paul types or most hardtails equally rapid.

Now admittedly i never get handed a strat as i do not know anyone in person whom uses one (A single coil at the bridge? You gotta be shittin' me!*)

*You know me

[Hink]

by using the claw screws/spring configuration to compensate for the tension of the strings, just like any fulcrum in order for there has to be balance on both sides. This method has worked for me from day I got my first floyd rose.

Sorry, I'm still not getting this. How is what you're doing different than how other guitars are set up?

FWIW if I decide I want to do a pick-up change in a guitar with a floyd rose I do not remove the strings, I remove the springs, then the entire whammy, lay it out past the headstock, change the pick-ups, put the whammy back in and typically I never even loosen the locking nut and can fine tune it.

Very cool! I'll try this when I air my Tone Zone.

I'm not sure I understand what your question is Eric? If I change the tension on the springs it changes the force on the strings, it's not really anything different and like I said I just figured this is what everyone does.

Example I change my tuning or change strings and I find myself constantly tuning up to get it in balance and when I get one string in tune another is flat and so on. I increase the tension on the springs pulling back more on the bar rasing the pitch of all my guitars. Now instead of using the machine heads to keep tuning it up to be in tune I have raised all the strings to higher than I want and I have to tune down to find the balance (I may to have to still adjust the tension one way or another several more times)..I simply am zeroing in on the balance using both spring tension and string tension

[Uncle E]

I changed to a lower tuning (I like open Gm) which was less tension than standard, by moving the two outside springs from angling to the center and putting them to 1 and 5 on the claw it released some of the tension on those two springs and then a small amount of adjustment on the claw screws was all it needed.

That's what Carl is advocating which makes total sense to me:



Then there's the EVH way, which also makes sense to me:



Then there's this somewhat common method, which makes the least sense to me of all:



When all is said and done, is there a way that we can actually gauge how much tension is on each string? Is there any optimal string gauge to pitch that keeps the same tension across all strings? IME, the light top/heavy bottom "custom" gauges really do horrible things for me trems.

[Hink]

I changed to a lower tuning (I like open Gm) which was less tension than standard, by moving the two outside springs from angling to the center and putting them to 1 and 5 on the claw it released some of the tension on those two springs and then a small amount of adjustment on the claw screws was all it needed.

That's what Carl is advocating which makes total sense to me:



Then there's the EVH way, which also makes sense to me:



Then there's this somewhat common method, which makes the least sense to me of all:



When all is said and done, is there a way that we can actually gauge how much tension is on each string? Is there any optimal string gauge to pitch that keeps the same tension across all strings? IME, the light top/heavy bottom "custom" gauges really do horrible things for me trems.

yeah that's basically it, my ESP came like th EVH but with one more spring in the middle.

[Uncle E]

Really like Musicmans as they are a doddle to do and sorting Les Paul types or most hardtails equally rapid.

Music Man headstocks are how strats ought to be done. Why the guitar playing community, including myself, put up with the horrible 6-per-side machines is bizarre.