Lightweight MIDI Controllers for Ivory 2 running on Receptor 2+ PRO

[dbelmont2]

I am looking to get a lightweight (40 pounds or less) MIDI Controller to play Ivory 2 (and other virtual instruments) on a Receptor 2+ PRO.

I ordered a VAX77 because what I read on various forums was so positive -- then I emailed Tom Brislin, the guy who reviewed it for Keyboard Magazine (I couldn't find this review online), and his response was mixed. He basically said it works great for some people but it's not for everyone. Are there people out there who have tried the VAX77 with Ivory 2, and if so what do you think ?

I am also thinking of trying the Yamaha CP33, the Roland RD-300NX, or the
Yamaha Motif XS7. What do people think of these for Ivory 2 (and other virtual instruments) ?

And -- are there other controllers that are 40 pounds are less that people would recommend ?

Thanks very much,
Dan

[Bryan@MuseResearch]

Hi Dan

Its funny, I was originally very skeptical about the VAX, and then I had a chance to play it, and get some REALLY good players to provide their opinions, and I have to say I thought it was pretty good. Then we took it to several trade shows and a large number of piano players AND synthesists gave it the thumbs up, and I gradually became a fan. Then I learned about the hall-effect technology upon which the keyboard is based, with each key hand tuned and surfaces, and at that point I went from liking it to being fairly blown away by it. Yeah, the pitch bend and mod are novel and incite strong opinions, but if you are using it for piano that hardly matters. The fact that it is cast out of magnesium (!) means it is expensive but also lightweight, and the fact it folds in half and goes into a wheeled bag makes it a joy to travel with. All in all, an extremely impressive piece, and 100% hand made in the good 'ol USA.

It works great with Receptor, and one particular player who tried it with Ivory 2 and said the action was faster and better than anything he had ever played, and he was endorsed by a very large and successful company that makes both synths and acoustic pianos... So really the only issue with the VAX is that it is kind of expensive, but I think you do get what you pay for. And the people at the company are great as well, which is nice to know.

If you are looking for something really lightweight and fairly inexpensive, I think that the Fatar Nano is probably the only decent feeling keyboard that is really lightweight. However, they are kinda hard to find, and they have an unusual user interface for patch selection / controller functionality which takes some getting used to. The VMK-188 is my favorite in terms of bang for the buck, but it is all steel, which is good, but that doesn't help its weight. I'd actually call it on the heavy side overall, but it is still an excellent value.

Its disappointing that there aren't a lot of really high quality controllers out there... the VAX really stands alone as the premium controller with no real competition.

I'd really be interested in other people's opinions on this as well...

Bryan

[dbelmont2]

Hi Bryan --

Thanks for the reply. My VAX77 arrived yesterday and I played it with Ivory 2 running on Receptor 2+ PRO connected to two QSC K12 speakers for 4 hours. It's absolutely AMAZING. I had been using a Kurzweil SP4-8 with this setup (something I was planning on returning anyway for various reasons) and had begun to make my peace with using the Kurzweil (I was able to make Ivory 2 sound good with it though the action was kind of stiff) but then -- within minutes of plugging the VAX77 in I was able to make Ivory 2 sound WAY more expressive. I don't really understand the technology behind the VAX77 (the guy at Infinite Response explained it to me but I am not good with these kinds of things) but I was able to get all kinds of tonal colors out of Ivory 2 that I simply could not get with the Kurzweil.

I ran what I consider a fairly comprehensive test relative to styles of music (jazz, pop, R&B, gospel, blues) as I will be playing these styles at various gigs and the breadth of textures and nuance I was able to get was breathtaking. I am using the German piano in Ivory 2 (which is a Steinway sample). I was raised playing a very good Steinway upright and I have to say playing the VAX77 in the above mentioned setup was the FIRST time in my life I was able to get some of the textures I got out of the Steinway I grew up with on an electronic instrument (and, for that matter, I have not been able to get this texture from that many acoustic pianos either). When playing in a gospel style I was able to do that thing that gospel players do where you get really big and then suddenly very quiet -- very, very nice.

I am going to use the VAX77 on a couple of gigs next weekend before I make my final decision -- but I am leaning heavily towards keeping it.

To respond to what you said about the Fatar Nano -- I originally ordered a Fatar Numa Nano (I assume this is the one you are referring to). I did this despite the Nano have a pretty terrible reputation in the various Forum posts I saw (actually it's Fatar that has the bad rep -- people repeatedly said they have poor build quality). The Nano I got was completely unusable -- I used the touchscreen and often the same exact swipes produced different results. Now it is likely mine was defective (the onscreen parameters kept changing without me touching it !) -- but Fatar seems to be a company in trouble. And -- when you go to their website and click on the tech support link they show you a map of Italy -- that's about it (there is a number to call in Italy but who wants to do that from the U.S.).

Thanks,
Dan

[TWB121234]

Dan,
As I am also considering the VAX77 to use with my Receptor 2, I appreciate your comments (Bryan as well), and will be interested to hear about your gigging experience with the VAX.
Tom

[Bryan@MuseResearch]

Hey Dan

By all means keep us posted. I think the guys at Infinite Response have done something quite impressive... and the keyboard should be incredibly reliable because the key sensing is all done magnetically. I find that to be very novel, since everyone else uses two switch contacts to measure the time of flight of the key to determine velocity. These guys use a DSP to calculate the rate of change of the magnetic field across a hall effect sensor to determine velocity. Very clever. And with no moving parts besides the key itself, it should be incredibly reliable.

Sorry to hear about your Nano experience. We used one as a controller at the Musik Messe in Frankfurt a year ago and it worked fine, although i thought the user interface was a bit, well, unusual. Ya gotta admit that the weight of the thing is impressive - it weighs next to nothing yet has a really nice feeling action. I'm still a Fatar fan, and here in the States they are represented by American Sound and Music which is a good distirbutor (they also do Novation and Kurzweil).

Looking forward to hearing about your experience gigging with the VAX. Interesting gossip: apparently U2's Terry Lawless just picked up a VAX and he has nothing but great things to say about them so far...

Bryan

[dbelmont2]

Just for the record -- in addition to the extremely positive reviews I had read about the VAX77 on various forums apparently Stevie Wonder tried one at NAMM 2011 and said it was the best keybed he had ever played. That's quite a comment from someone that both has an incredible touch on all kinds of keyboards as well as owning literally hundreds of keyboard synths.

Another thing about the VAX77 that I really like -- it seems to be well positioned for new developments in virtual instruments and enriched MIDI datastreams. I feel comfortable investing in it partially because I feel as I get more into virtual instruments (I am new to soft synths though I have been playing all-in-one synths since the mid 80s) the firmware updates to the VAX77 will enable me to get the most out of whatever virtual instruments I wind up buying over the next few years.

My gigs are next Friday and Sunday -- I will be happy to report the results here on the Forum. I will say as I was playing I tried to imagine the VAX77 triggering Ivory 2 cutting through with my R&B band (something I'm relatively good at) and it felt like it should be just fine. Of course there is nothing like actually doing it though.

[dbelmont2]

Played the VAX77 for another 4 hours today ... continuing to love it ..
A question I have for anyone who owns one - how reliable is the Touch Screen ? I am going to need to depend on it to change MIDI channels ...

Thanks,
Dan

[marzzz]

Played the VAX77 for another 4 hours today ... continuing to love it ..
A question I have for anyone who owns one - how reliable is the Touch Screen ? I am going to need to depend on it to change MIDI channels

The guys who designed it are engineers first, musicians second. While I don't know the specifics of the touch screen per se, I know they would have gone out of their way to make sure it was reliable. You could also go to their website and ask them directly: http://www.infiniteresponse.com/forum/

[Robert Karasek]

Its disappointing that there aren't a lot of really high quality controllers out there... the VAX really stands alone as the premium controller with no real competition.

I'd really be interested in other people's opinions on this as well...

Bryan

True !!!
I'm using FATAR/Studiologic's VMK188, too.
good price, good keyboard, enough controllers, solid and not too heavy.

I was checking out AKAI MPK 88 the other day... some cool features... but HEAVY... and the keys are very loud... quite annoying...


I'm sure there will be some new stuff at trade shows 2012

[dbelmont2]

I used the VAX77 on two gigs this past weekend ... I have the VAX77 MIDI'd up to a Receptor 2+ PRO running the German piano on Ivory 2 ... the speakers I am plugged into are a pair of QSC K12s ... Overall I have to say that the VAX77 is quite amazing ... the first gig was R&B + Rock and although I struggled for the first two sets to get the right volume level and speaker placement (the band is quite loud ... I also had the QSC K12s plugged into our PA so there was a lot to adjust) but once I got the volume levels worked out the breadth of expression I was able to get from the VAX77/Ivory 2 combination was awe inspiring ... it sounded great on Rock songs (we do a few Beatles and Rolling Stones), it cut through well on the Michael Jackson songs we do, and on gospel/pop numbers it had all of the subtlety and power I was looking for ...

The second gig was jazz and this show was much more piano-centric ... I was blown away by the variety of textures and shadings I could get out of the VAX77/Ivory 2 combination ... on ballads it was quite beautiful and expressive, on Latin jazz songs I was able to get the feel, groove, and sound I was looking for, we did a Samba and it felt like I was able to get the perfect joyous, carnival-like sound and on funkier numbers I got the feel I wanted ... the overall experience was that I could find all kinds of textures on the spur of the moment that fit the song we were playing and that I could create in unexpected ways ... the musicians who heard me playing this weekend were blown away as well -- one of them commented that there seem to be all kinds of ways of playing the VAX77/Ivory 2 combination that will be uncovered as I get more used to it ...

This was my felt experience -- it's like there are all kinds of musical possibilities with VAX77/Ivory 2 to be discovered as the instrument becomes more familiar ... the only thing I didn't like (yet) is that I felt a little of the "playing a virtual instrument from a controller disconnect" that a lot of people complain about on various forums (people often say with virtual pianos you can't dig in like you can on a hardware synth) ... but my sense is that I am simply not used to the VAX77/Ivory 2 instrument quite yet, and that in time this issue will become less and less prevalent ... it's awe-inspiring to think about what is to come ...

It's funny -- playing the jazz gig reminded me of a Ray Charles concert I saw in the late 90s (not that I can play like him ... don't get me wrong) ... he was playing on an electronic keyboard (I couldn't see what it was) but he was getting around on it and making it sound like a grand piano ... this weekend's jazz gig had something of that quality ...

Dan

[PhilAiken]

I have owned and used a VAX77 for quite some time. It is simply, to me, the best and most expressive digital keyboard I have ever played. It is the only keyboard I feel comfortable playing both piano and organ on. It does not feel like a piano keyboard....but piano technique translates well with very little adjustment. It is able to transmit all 127 velocity values....if you give me a number between 1-127 I can hit it. (No, not on the first try)
Of particular note here, is that it interfaces with Receptor particularly well, and there are provisions for being able to load your Receptor presets and multis to be called up directly from a playlist.

[Bryan@MuseResearch]

....if you give me a number between 1-127 I can hit it. (No, not on the first try) ...

Hi Phil

Didn't know you had a VAX... that's cool. The fact that you can accurately attain any velocity level between 0 and 127 is amazing - this is a big problem with a lot of cheap controllers, their response is inconsistent... Does it actually send out velocity Zero? Theoretically, there is such a thing, and if memory serves, if you send velocity zero to Ivory, you won't hear an impact on the string, but you'll hear the hammer drop just like in a real piano.

Have you had any issues with velocity curves mapping well to different plugins? Obviously, with something like Ivory you can match the plugin to the controller by changing its V curve, but what about with synths? Have you run in to any issues where the response is too much for the plugin, or too little?

This is a really big problem with some of the heretofore unnamed controllers coming out of China... the factory velocity curves simply don't match up well with the expected curves that are designed into the presets.

Bryan

[PhilAiken]

....if you give me a number between 1-127 I can hit it. (No, not on the first try) ...

Hi Phil

Didn't know you had a VAX... that's cool. The fact that you can accurately attain any velocity level between 0 and 127 is amazing - this is a big problem with a lot of cheap controllers, their response is inconsistent... Does it actually send out velocity Zero? Theoretically, there is such a thing, and if memory serves, if you send velocity zero to Ivory, you won't hear an impact on the string, but you'll hear the hammer drop just like in a real piano.

Have you had any issues with velocity curves mapping well to different plugins? Obviously, with something like Ivory you can match the plugin to the controller by changing its V curve, but what about with synths? Have you run in to any issues where the response is too much for the plugin, or too little?

This is a really big problem with some of the heretofore unnamed controllers coming out of China... the factory velocity curves simply don't match up well with the expected curves that are designed into the presets.

Bryan

I'm away on family vacation, and can't check on the velocity =0 question....but I do know that there is a setting within Ivory for the minimum velocity you want it to respond to..which I have set at 2 or three as a habit from when I used it primarily with a Yamaha digital piano as my controller.
I have not experienced any problems with velocity curves. I tend to leave the controller on default, and adjust the curves within the plugins. For live use, I tend to use a small pallette of high quality plugs....Ivory, VB3, Scarbee electric pianos in Kontakt, M Tron, Omnisphere.......The velocity response crucial ones are obviously Ivory and the electric pianos, and I have these set pretty much to my liking.
One of the odd things about the VAX is that if I play it with no sound module connected, it feels too light.....but not so with the sound on. It RESPONDS like it is heavier than it physically is, if that makes sense. It is extremely expressive, and I can control my dynamics with my playing more than on a digital piano. The folding thing is a bonus, and cool, but I would buy one at full price even if it didn't fold. Can you tell that I love the thing?

[PhilAiken]

Played the VAX77 for another 4 hours today ... continuing to love it ..
A question I have for anyone who owns one - how reliable is the Touch Screen ? I am going to need to depend on it to change MIDI channels ...

Thanks,
Dan

Mine is probably around a year and a half old, and I haven't had any issues. I have thought about buying a replacement touch screen as insurance for the long haul, since I am so enamored of the board.

[gregh1]

One of the odd things about the VAX is that if I play it with no sound module connected, it feels too light.....but not so with the sound on.

From my days with the Fairlight CMI, I recall this same phenomenon. The feel seems to change depending on the sound.