How can we improve the patch contests?

[hakey]

If anyone has any constructive criticism regarding the patch contests this is the place to discuss it.

I'll try my hardest to accommodate all reasonable requests, though satisfying everyone is a big ask!

Ideally I would prefer it if we could reach consensus on any changes. So if someone feels strongly about something, it's up to them to put forward a persuasive argument.

Please remember the patch contests are primarily intended as a bit of fun, so keep things in perspective and be polite!

[hakey]

Okay, so the voting format: open thread voting with a running score vs. secret ballot.

There is one obvious flaw with the system as it is, namely that those who vote later on may be influenced to various ends by those votes already cast.

In favour of the status quo, an active voting thread at the top of the forum maintains a degree of interest in the contests in a way that a secret ballot might not. Also, open voting is more immediately transparent and it's fairly easy to administer - at least, the problem of vote influencing aside, we know it works.

If a secret ballot were called for, how would it be administered and who would do the boring work of collecting and collating the votes? In other words, any changes would first have to meet with bmrzycki's approval.

[bmrzycki]

Voting would have to switch to PM because anyone could easily tabulate who's in the lead if votes are still public. Sigh, more stuff to administer...

[mcnoone]

My suggestion is no suggestion.
I think it's fine the way it is.
Good job guys.

[hakey]

Voting would have to switch to PM because anyone could easily tabulate who's in the lead if votes are still public.

Yep, that was my conclusion.

Sigh, more stuff to administer...

Thought that might be your reaction.

I think it's fine the way it is.

Thanks mc!

[Breeze]

Excellent! (I will be civil! I promise!)

Let's tackle the tabulation issue. So on keeping the voting and tally a secret:

Pros:

- It keeps everyone interested in the results for the duration of the voting, as no one knows where they stand till the very end.
- It avoids voters being influenced by other people's choices.
- It avoids voting manipulation.

When participants know they're not even close to the top slots, they have a tendency to lose interest. The "tally" is only really exciting for the few who are at the top. Keeping it secret has the advantage of keeping more participants expectant.

Cons:

- Removes the excitement factor at seeing who's in the lead.
- It's more work to administer.
- The vote cannot be verified by the participants, unless everyone's voting is posted at contest end.

As mentioned, voting could be by PM. But it could also be via a voting form page hosted on a website (U-he's?) That could automate both the voting tally and the data display required at the end of the contest for final voting verification.

If that's impossible, I'm not convinced it would be that much more work to read the results by PM rather than on the board. You can ask the PM subject to be labled: ZPC#X-Voting-Username, to keep it clear and to only include the votes in a specific format without comments. You could also just open a kvr or gmail account just for the voting to keep it clean and manageable. However, I admit that in this case posting the final voting for verification will require some formatting work.

I believe the change will be worth the effort as the contest grows and more people enter, at which point statistically the "Pros" will become more relevant.

(BTW, I was preparing a post with all the issues I've though of, but it's probably best to tackle them one at a time in this thread.)

[hakey]

I agree with all of the pros and cons!

That said I don't think that this is all that important:

- Removes the excitement factor at seeing who's in the lead.

It's not so much the excitement as just having an active thread during the voting period which hopefully does something to raise the profile of the contests (trying to maintain a healthy level of participation is probably my major concern).

As for the administration issue with voting by PMs - it's bmrzycki who you need to persuade.

[hakey]

As mentioned, voting could be by PM. But it could also be via a voting form page hosted on a website (U-he's?) That could automate both the voting tally and the data display required at the end of the contest for final voting verification.

That would be great, but setting up such a website woud require a fair bit of work from someone - see my earlier comments about bmrzycki and myself giving our free time to run the contests and how it's all meant to be a bit of fun, not serious graft.

[hakey]

Just seen your post in the voting thread - it rather looks like you're threatening to take your bat home because you haven't got your own way?

Seems a bit premature - did you expect us to just agree to implement the changes you suggested without discussing the finer points and without hearing what other people have to say about it?

Just to be clear, I'm not rejecting your suggestions out of hand! I'm merely pointing that there are issues that would need to be looked at.

And it's not just me or bmrzycki who need persuading - as I said in the first post any such changes would require a consensus of opinion.

So if you want to see the changes you've outlined you need to explain how you would overcome the issues I raised, or why they're not important, *and* persuade other people that such changes would be worthwhile.

Rome wasn't built in a day...

[petedako]

+1

DOUBLE fine!

My suggestion is no suggestion.
I think it's fine the way it is.
Good job guys.

[Breeze]

Just seen your post in the voting thread - it rather looks like you're threatening to take your bat home because you haven't got your own way?

OK my turn:

?

I'm not threatening anything. Since I won an NFR for a product that's not even released, it doesn't seem fair or even right for me to keep participating in the ZPC's because I feel others should get their chance at bat (continuing the baseball analogy). I'm still here watching the game with great interest. I still think it's a valuable addition to the U-he community. And I still think it could be better.

Back to the topic: I'm going to look into setting up a voting site and see for myself how complex that would be. Will let you know.

[hakey]

it doesn't seem fair or even right for me to keep participating in the ZPC's because I feel others should get their chance at bat

nothing stopping you from passing a prize on...

Anyway, considering the level of misunderstanding between the two of us, I think it's probably best if I offer no further comment about any suggestions that you make.

@everyone else: I'm still keen to hear opinions about these proposed changes - for or against - as well as any other suggestions folk may have.

[Breeze]

@everyone else: I'm still keen to hear opinions about these proposed changes - for or against - as well as any other suggestions folk may have.

+1 If everyone's happy with the status quo, then so be it.

Poll?

[hakey]

Poll?

I reckon comments in the thread are a better barometer of the opinion of those who matter. With a poll you can't differentiate between passing voters who may never have taken part in a contest before and who may never take part in a future contest no matter what the format, and those with a genuine interest in participating.

[Howard]

My suggestion is no suggestion. I think it's fine the way it is. Good job guys.

+1