MeldaProduction

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:49 am

MeldaProduction wrote:how would you define "ratio" here?

The same as in any other dynamic processor. If the sidechain level rises 10dB above the threshold, then a ratio of 2:1 would result in 5dB of gain reduction, a ratio of 10:1 would result in 9dB of gain reduction, etc.

Perhaps its easier to set the Ratio as a linear scaler from 0 to 1. You can then simply multiply the amount by which you have crossed the threshold (in dB) by that scaler to derive the gain reduction (in dB).

If you haven't converted to a dB scale and are dealing with linear amplitude values you can use (threshold/abs_level)^scaler instead.

This works quite nicely as a value of 0.5 equates to a ratio of 2:1, while 1 gives inifity:1 The control range is then quite intuitive, with subtle settings below 2:1 over the bottom half of the range, and firmer settings up to limiting in the upper half.

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:15 am

And now what if the threshold is 0 (-infinite dB). Then the ratio doesn't have any logical meaning. Of course you can set a fixed minimum threshold to say -200dB, but that doesn't really help much. So you end up with 2 parameters you HAVE TO use as with common compressors. At the end you didn't really help yourself compared to multiband compressors, except this may be slightly easier to use.

In fact, you're right in one thing - the dynamic gain actually is ratio if you are in "logarithmic" mode. There you can easily verify what I mean. The log mode basically doesn't work, unless you setup the threshold. The other modes work with "silence" threshold as well with no problems and then it is not a real ratio.

The main question is the sound. And honestly, when I was creating the presets, e.g. deessing and stuff, I ended up with a conclusion, that the linear mode just works the best (despite the theory says most of it should be logarithmic). And that's the most important thing to me. In fact I didn't use the log mode in any of the presets (note that the newest version contains a few more presets).

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:17 am

Btw. if the problem would be that the ratios are "too small", which sometimes they are (though with squared mode, rarely), it would be quite easy to add quartic mode, which would be even more aggressive.

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:45 pm

MeldaProduction wrote:And now what if the threshold is 0 (-infinite dB). Then the ratio doesn't have any logical meaning. Of course you can set a fixed minimum threshold to say -200dB, but that doesn't really help much.

Why would you ever need a threshold of -infinite dB? In what situation would -200dB be too high a threshold? -90dB would be more than adequate as a lower end of the scale IMO.

MeldaProduction wrote:So you end up with 2 parameters you HAVE TO use as with common compressors.

We already do: Threshold and Dynamic Gain. I just want you to replace your limited Dynamic Gain parameter with a proper Ratio. What's wrong with common compressors btw? If you don't understand how to use one, what do you think you are going to achieve with dynamic EQ???

MeldaProduction wrote:At the end you didn't really help yourself compared to multiband compressors, except this may be slightly easier to use.

It doesn't matter what you do with the dynamics stage: DYNAMIC EQ IS NOT THE SAME THING AS MULTIBAND COMPRESSION.

MeldaProduction wrote:In fact, you're right in one thing - the dynamic gain actually is ratio if you are in "logarithmic" mode. There you can easily verify what I mean. The log mode basically doesn't work, unless you setup the threshold. The other modes work with "silence" threshold as well with no problems and then it is not a real ratio.

The main question is the sound. And honestly, when I was creating the presets, e.g. deessing and stuff, I ended up with a conclusion, that the linear mode just works the best (despite the theory says most of it should be logarithmic). And that's the most important thing to me. In fact I didn't use the log mode in any of the presets (note that the newest version contains a few more presets).

Btw. if the problem would be that the ratios are "too small", which sometimes they are (though with squared mode, rarely), it would be quite easy to add quartic mode, which would be even more aggressive.

And this is easier and simpler than a Ratio control..?

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:02 pm

Well, seems that we aren't going to agree on this

...

Anyway my conclusion is, that you want to use it as a compressor basically. That makes the "gain" of each band kind of redundant, so it stops becoming an equalizer imho.

My approach is to use it as an ordinary equalizer (except for some tricks, as shown in presets), where you use the dynamic gain to do some "corrections". For example, when you eq a bass drum, it sounds good, but in the refrain the drummer starts hitting it too much, so that the bass drum is killing everything else in the mix, you just use some negative dynamic gain to avoid it. If you are a tweaker, you can also use the threshold, but you don't need to! So it's quick and easy...

I'll think about the ratio once more, I also asked a few people, so we'll see what they will come with, but frankly I think it will stay the way it is. And for the record, the idea with "dynamic gain" is actually not mine, I just liked it

.

miro pajic · Post by **miro pajic** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:05 pm

nevermind

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:18 pm

miro pajic wrote:nevermind

Don't worry, mac soon

John-E34 · Post by **John-E34** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:42 am

IIRs wrote:I just want you to replace your limited Dynamic Gain parameter with a proper Ratio. What's wrong with common compressors btw? If you don't understand how to use one, what do you think you are going to achieve with dynamic EQ???

I really like the way this equalizer is structured, and fail to see why people are trying to persuade Vojtech to turn it into another compressor...

This is a "Dynamic Equalizer" - If you want a multiband compressor, just use MmultibandDynamics.

BTW - The trial period is running low

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:44 am

John-E34 wrote:
IIRs wrote:I just want you to replace your limited Dynamic Gain parameter with a proper Ratio. What's wrong with common compressors btw? If you don't understand how to use one, what do you think you are going to achieve with dynamic EQ???
I really like the way this equalizer is structured, and fail to see why people are trying to persuade Vojtech to turn it into another compressor...

This is a "Dynamic Equalizer" - If you want a multiband compressor, just use MmultibandDynamics.

BTW - The trial period is running low

Yeah! That's what I'm talking about!

You know, in czech we have a saying "A habit is an iron shirt", ok, maybe this free translation isn't really ideal

.

And don't worry, being ported to Mac right now

, then it will go out.

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:11 am

John-E34 wrote:This is a "Dynamic Equalizer"

But the "Dynamics" part is currently severely limited.

MeldaProduction wrote:Anyway my conclusion is, that you want to use it as a compressor basically. That makes the "gain" of each band kind of redundant, so it stops becoming an equalizer imho.

Not at all. The gain of each band is equivalent to the make-up gain of a traditional dynamics processor. So you can set up a cut that flattens out on every kick drum hit for example.

MeldaProduction wrote:For example, when you eq a bass drum, it sounds good, but in the refrain the drummer starts hitting it too much, so that the bass drum is killing everything else in the mix, you just use some negative dynamic gain to avoid it

Yes exactly. Or to put it another way, you apply some compression to those frequencies as well as a boost. I simply want access to the full range of compression and expansion options instead of the limited low ratio only versions provided by your Dynamic Gain parameter. And I would much rather not have to use the graphic editor to achieve that.

mljung · Post by **mljung** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:14 am

I really like this dynamic EQ and it bothers me a tiny bit with all the discussion about how the "dynamic engine" is working - I really like it as it is

I want to emphasize that I really like the debate, because good suggestions can obviously make a plugin better, but it is as if this is not going anywhere.

May I suggest a release now - and then if Vojtech can be convinced that there's reason to make a more "advanced" version, then I'm sure Vojtech could do a MAdvancedDynEQ, later on

One bug: When I try the presets and if I load a presets using side-chain, Wavelab stops responding.

::
Mads

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:58 am

IIRs wrote: Yes exactly. Or to put it another way, you apply some compression to those frequencies as well as a boost. I simply want access to the full range of compression and expansion options instead of the limited low ratio only versions provided by your Dynamic Gain parameter. And I would much rather not have to use the graphic editor to achieve that.

Well, I think it's not limited and you don't need to use the graphic editor. If you really want to use it like this and you want the sound of it, just switch all bands to log mode and save it as a preset

. Then you just need to accept the fact that threshold is threshold, but ratio is dynamic gain

.

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:01 am

mljung wrote:I really like this dynamic EQ and it bothers me a tiny bit with all the discussion about how the "dynamic engine" is working - I really like it as it is

I want to emphasize that I really like the debate, because good suggestions can obviously make a plugin better, but it is as if this is not going anywhere.

May I suggest a release now - and then if Vojtech can be convinced that there's reason to make a more "advanced" version, then I'm sure Vojtech could do a MAdvancedDynEQ, later on

One bug: When I try the presets and if I load a presets using side-chain, Wavelab stops responding.

::
Mads

Thanks!

I kinda think the same way. The plugin is now able to do both, but our method is easier, and those who are not used to it and don't want to get used to it, they can just change the mode, so I pretty much consider it solved and I am up to check the Mac finally.
With the wavelab - yeah I have this reported, have to fix it.

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:09 am

Well, I'm just frustrated because, despite all the cool extra features in this plug-in, for the core functionality of manipulating the dynamics of a specific frequency band (dynamic EQ) I can still get better results (and quicker) using my home-made Synthedit / Synthmaker plugs.

Specifically, with IQ4 I can easily switch to the type of mode I want (eg: upward expansion) then quickly and easily set my threshold in relation to the sidechain levels. I can then tweak Ratio, Attack and Release, all from the same place, and in relation to the other controls.

It frustrates me because I know Vojtech could easily make a plug-in that would completely kill my IQ4 if he put his mind to it. But he seems to have this perverse antipathy to the concept of a Ratio control...

Honestly, if the current dynamics section were replaced with a conventional dynamics stage, with options for upward and downward compression and expansion, and conventional Threshold and Ratio controls plus Range, THIS PLUGIN WOULD TOTALLY ROCK!!

Tell you what Vojtech: if you do that for me I will make you a comprehensive video tutorial in return, demonstrating exactly why I regard this as so important.

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:22 am

MeldaProduction wrote:log mode

Just trying this for the first time... why is this not the default mode??? This is way easier to dial in!

I'm going to have to re-evaluate the plug down at the studio (currently just testing on my laptop).

MeldaProduction

KVR Audio

Beta version of MDynamicEq available, optinions?