Next stupid question: the usefulness of learning / practising scales?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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do it your way :p

i had a cursory education in music theory as a youth, but my interests lay in electronic and experimental music, where it didn't seem that practical (at the time, electronic tracks usually only had a few pitched elements).

i never developed a proficiency with a physical instrument, because the instrument of choice was imagination. i wanted to be able to imagine something and then transcribe it into a sequence/timbre, without the formulative filter of where my fingers fell easily, et c.

i think i achieved a good transduction between imaginative conception and realisation as such. it strengthened my ability to retain a phrase until i could go through the often lengthy process of sequencing it precisely.

i hear practically the same thing from any musician - eventually, you have to walk the whole road, whether you are raised with theory or avoiding it. i'm finally making a concerted effort to develop 'muscle memory' so that i can perform some of the things i've had to sequence previously, and i expect practiced musicians do go to lengths to retain some sovereignty for their imaginative conception over what comes easily. each choice takes some time and effort, so wherever you apply yourself, you're bound to gain something from it :)
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All very well said, sir, especially
xoxos wrote:
i never developed a proficiency with a physical instrument, because the instrument of choice was imagination. i wanted to be able to imagine something and then transcribe it into a sequence/timbre, without the formulative filter of where my fingers fell easily, et c.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDj_Van ... uNbgY-4qFK

Circumcision's just another way of saying 'bye to the 'hood

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if you're going to be involved in music, proficiency on an instrument for music is not something to think is a great idea to eschew. if you have knowledge of the thing by cause and effect, experiential knowledge, you will have ideas out of that knowledge. If you never practice interval comparison by singing them or experiencing them from hitting a note, you will not have these ideas. You will be stuck guessing what happens and trying to force ideas, or basically recalling what you've heard and struggling to regurgitate that.

there is no process of abstraction that will get you around this. it's fine to say that there was no great attention to pitch in electronic music at one time; as a matter of fact when I played with the Buchla II in Electronic Music lab at SFCM, there was no keyboard for this instrument. However, that is a whole realm of music that stands apart from 'tunes', from 'harmony'... It may be gratifying to you at the moment to applaud the statement as it seems to validate something for you as someone that doesn't play instruments, but you should be cautious here.

That said, I don't have much proficiency at a keyboard, while most of what I 'write' currently relies on the key editor and keyboard input. I don't have a lot of that particular muscle memory as a crutch; this means I am relying on my ear - which is something I developed playing and singing. I know the keyboard so I am not guessing as to the distance of intervals on it, but I'm not doing hand pattern-based lines. I know what a horn line's shape will be according to experience with them, working with horn players, I know what a guitar line is from being a guitarist, I know classical phrasing for say a cello solo from having had to whip pieces into shape for jury. The mind is a vast network of muscles and memories to draw from and it's informed by practice and experience, cause and effect, knowledge. There is no dodge for this that will work.

A lot of classical people can really play scales and when they are called upon to perform a scale passage they're golden, but scales aren't music and a heavy reliance on proficiency at scales can be a hazard of its own, scales in lieu of LINES, MELODY.

I had secondary piano at CCM, which I dropped pretty quickly, the tutor was a piano major with no time to make any plan other than 'here's the Hanon Exercises, do that', which was entirely useless for me as I never intended to be a pianist, never even had a piano. Avoid that guy.

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I'm actually studying hannon excersizes now to get me out of my rut and strengthen my new approaches

Hanon develops finger strength and dexterity.
Hanon develops finger independence.
You can train your fingers to find intervals with Hanon.
Hammon exercises are not intended to expand your creativity but they don't detract from it either. Sometimes removing yourself from the "stylism" is the best way to lay a foundation to your own or several styles at once.

I'm a former guitar teacher, I've seen my fair share of posers knock on my door who studied under others but didn't apply themselves. Applying yourself means practicing scales and patterns and the payoff is in the performance. Those with some talent but no effort always fall apart. The timing is off, they might have a good start but a lousy follow thru. They get stuck in a box and they can niether escape the box nor find alternatives in the box. I'll ask them where are they going with it and they don't know. They don't know because they were always fooling around instead of studying what they needed to know. I wasn't one of those "hey wanna learn a cool lick that you'll never learn the whole song or how to apply for what your doing" type teachers.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad

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not sure if it's been mentioned but I found it far more useful to learn my intervals as opposed to note names. But yeah, learning of scales and modes is essential imo but that is based on my musical tastes. There are going to people who prefer different genres than I and may disagree and I cannot dispute their opinions as I am not an expert in their genre. However as a rock and roll guitar player and a keyboard player (not as much of a player as a writer on the keyboard) scales and modes are a must know kinda thing (at least for me) and I have to think in terms of intervals

I like a program called chordwizard, it uses an image of a guitar neck with strings and you can set it up for any tuning and more instruments than just guitar. Then it will show you the chords (57 chord shapes) and scales/modes (31 different ones) in each key for each tuning (like 9349 chordshapes total for each tuning). Then it has a realtions tab which is a matrix of what scales go with what chordshapes in each key. Similar can be found online for free but I like this because it's designed for guitarists like myself who use many different tunings :)
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xoxos wrote:i never developed a proficiency with a physical instrument, because the instrument of choice was imagination. i wanted to be able to imagine something and then transcribe it into a sequence/timbre, without the formulative filter of where my fingers fell easily, et c.
Actually being extremely comfortable with a physical instrument will be the best way to translate your imagination to a sound. Unfortunately the only instrument I've had enough practice to do this with is violin, which doesn't help in my DAW much. I WISH I was as comfortable with a keyboard. Once you're really practiced, your fingers play what your brain imagines.

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If only that were true. What if your brain has lost it's imagination? Or if everything you do reminds you of what you or someone else has already done?

Truth be told there are intelectual techniques that can never be gained by simply playing route scales and patterns. One has to work out those as well.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad

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tapper mike wrote:Hanon.
- - exercises are not intended to expand your creativity but they don't detract from it either. Sometimes removing yourself from the "stylism" is the best way to lay a foundation to your own or several styles at once.
I had no intention of gaining virtuosity on a piano. I was at a new school in an expensive town and working to support myself. Who has time for this? this was all the guy had, in lieu of any interest. "Do this and there will be a test for your grade."

Instead of say Bartok Mikrokosmos.

I am a proponent of teaching music by playing music. I would NEVER insist a beginning student on guitar do scales and exercises and offer no music to play while doing it. It was lazy and shoddy. FOR THE OP: there are people like this in the teaching profession; this is an extreme example in an exceptional situation, but still, AVOID THAT GUY.

I was there interesting in advancing my musicianship. Zero musical context in favor of developing my piano muscles? I don't need it.

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hanon exercises are a good way to get carpal tunnel. i had more than one conservatory trained teacher tell me to avoid that book like the plague.

if you want etudes to improve speed, coordination, and flexibility, try playing bach or bartok. it sounds better than hanon, that's for sure.

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Fortunately I'm not playing them on a keyboard. As well, when studying hannon technique is everything. If you learn hannon the correct way for piano you won't suffer from wrist issues.

Re Bartok, really not familiar with him

Re Bach, Bach studies are idiomatic.

When approaching a study you don't want the idiom to overtake the study. As an example the pentatonic minor is not blues, rock, or jazz though all three borrow from it. If you approach the scale from the idiom then all you'll get is the idiom back out. When you study the scale outside of idomatic or stylistic approaches then you can pull more styles idioms back out because your not walking into the scale with a preconceptualization of what it should be.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad

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But hanon studies are idiomatic. The idiom is expressionless, musical gymnastics that can impede your ability to play with dynamics. Also, there is definately a set of stylistic choices being made in Hanon, such as playing in lock tempo all 16th notes without phrasing. I really can't overstate how negatively those things are perceived by classically trained musicians.

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one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to practice such that even the most boring and formulaic examples were played in a 'musical' way

my older brother played out of a Hanon book and I'm not sure it's possible to play those in a 'musical' way

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I just checked out Hanon on youtube and, yeah, seems ultra tedious. So what is a less dreary substitute? Any way this can be made even remotely fun?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDj_Van ... uNbgY-4qFK

Circumcision's just another way of saying 'bye to the 'hood

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jopy wrote:But hanon studies are idiomatic. The idiom is expressionless, musical gymnastics that can impede your ability to play with dynamics. Also, there is definately a set of stylistic choices being made in Hanon, such as playing in lock tempo all 16th notes without phrasing. I really can't overstate how negatively those things are perceived by classically trained musicians.
I attended two conservatories and noticed discussion in the negative, 'Hanon injurious, don't do it'. It's made to advance a level of mechanics only a concert pianist is going to need anyway.

Hanon is amusical.

I think the 'idiom' can be injurious to the musical mind. At CCM, there were 'the cells', a great big building with little practice rooms. Exposure to all of this rote scales and mechanistic practice regimens was an eye-opener to me. Too many classical musicians have a hard time with things that aren't rote or mechnical I found, compared to such as jazz where everything is applied to tunes. If I had a tough scale run in a piece, I would hammer it til I could nail it, but scales by themselves is a potential pitfall IMO.

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Hanon ...*shudder*
I was never going pro anways, :hihi:
..what goes around comes around..

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