Next stupid question: the usefulness of learning / practising scales?

[tapper mike]

I think there needs to be some air clearing here.

I'm a seasoned musician. I'm 50. I've been a session guitarists working for studios doing commercial work. I've done the whole touring band trying to make it in the big time. I've had original bands and cover bands. I've played as a blues guitarist, a rock guitarist and a jazz guitarist. I've opened for Bonny Rait, Hall & Oates and a few others. I've got close to 2,000 gigs under my belt. And while I would never teach hannon exercises to an aspiring guitarists what I do with my time is my business.

Hannon exercises are quite a different experience on a ztar I can assure you all.

I'm studying hannon exersices because they are non stylistic, extremely boring and require that much more concentration to complete because of that. I'm also studying them on the ztar which is neither piano nor guitar. I don't suffer carpal tunnel because of it. If you always apply yourself to the same paths you'll always get the same result. A direction becomes a route and a route becomes a rut. Past a certain point the only way to get out of a rut is to build a new route or quit. I'm developing a new route by my study of hannon because I've never studied hannon before. Sure I've done enough guitar scale/patterns and arpeggios to last a life time. and while I've played segments of hannon patterns in other things I've never played hannon for hannon before.

I'm not studying Hannon because it's fun or to perform hannon. I do have time in my day to study hannon and still play other things and work. I doubt I'll complete the entire hannon series in my lifetime. I'm studying it as it is a new approach to a new instrument. Tapping on a ztar is unlike playing a piano (which I never could get into) or a guitar or tapping on a stick. There are harmonic capabilites on a ztar that cannot be expressed on a stick or guitar which can be expressed on a star or piano. I'm exploring those pathways as well.

As for someones previous comment about taking something non-musical sounding and trying to create something musical from it. That's part of the reason I'm studying hannon. Before you can explore the possibilites it's a good idea to have the concept down. First you study it as written then you expand on the concept. As a former teacher once expressed to me. Practice it 5x straight before you start playing variations. That way the original form will be permanent and you'll have a base for your variations to come back to.

Getting back to guitar for a moment. I can flat pick, I can finger pick, I can travis pick and I can tap. I can chord solo like Benson, Ted Greene, Chet Atkins and while I'll never be the second coming of Andy Mckee. I've been there done that.

When I first got my ztar everyday was an adventure of re-inventing myself to the instrument. I didn't get a ztar to be another midi-guitarist replaying the tried and true which got me into a rut. I got it to reinvent myself on the instrument. The adventures where great. Oh, I can do this, or here is a different way to do that. I made videos I got compliments and thanks from other ztarists all cool but I didn't want to stop there. I'd watch pianists and study piano approaches to apply them to the ztar and then I hit a huge roadblock. There are approaches that I should be able to attain but I lack the foundation in those area's. Now I can read notation however aptrophy has set in as I rarely do or did until recently. Do to the unique nature of a ztar being able to play more then one note per "string" one really can't easily tab out ztar studies. Hannon studies allow me to redevelop my sight reading (I don't just play them in C) In the short time I've been playing hannon exercies I've already noticed direct and positive changes to my performance of two hand ztar technique. i. My left/right unision, octave and interval shapes and patterns are more fluid. 2. I'm looking at my hands less. 3. Other material that I play is more expressive as release from the rigidity that hannon exercises offer. and 4 which I didn't expect. My left hand which has always been the weaker of the two rhythmiclly due to years and years of guitar playing is stronger especially in regards to left/right and left/left right rhythmic structures. Now is it the answer to all my prayers? No. It's a mechanical exercise used to build muscle memory outside of stylistic context which create greater finger independence by developing the micro muscle (fingers not wrist if you are doing it right) memory

[jancivil]

my bad for bringing it up then.

I'm actually bitter about that experience. I didn't have a lot of opportunities for a secondary piano tutor (my one semester there borrowing from institutions to be there, here are pianos. when I was at CCM I had juries to meet on an instrument I could actually play so I was in the cells 8 hrs a day) and he botched it for me.

My points are, I would not receommend it for people starting out at all, unless maybe they're pretty sure they're going to be in competitions playing terrfically difficult things, and with a teacher that has been demonstrated to understand the ergonomics of piano posture et cetera thoroughly.

[tapper mike]

No worries. I too have been down study that type of study path. I tried playing piano for years. I'd practice for an hour or two each day then pick up the guitar and ask myself why do I bother?

[jancivil]

so, you're using it as completely objective. been a while since I thought of the guitar that way.

I conceive guitar lines on a keyboard, unable to do much with a keyboard, a discipline to abstract it in the other direction, lines that aren't tied to and kind of hand pattern... some of these are next to impossible though they don't necessarily sound like it.

now you have me thinking to get ahold of the Slonimsky

[lingyai]

I just checked out Hanon on youtube and, yeah, seems ultra tedious. So what is a less dreary substitute? Any way this can be made even remotely fun?

Should I interpret the lack of response to this question to mean the answer is no?

[wrench45us]

well for fun you could turn the page upside down and play through with the inverted staff

[jopy]

I just checked out Hanon on youtube and, yeah, seems ultra tedious. So what is a less dreary substitute? Any way this can be made even remotely fun?

Should I interpret the lack of response to this question to mean the answer is no?

i'd say getting something like bach's well tempered clavier and really learning a few pieces inside and out will do wonders for your technique. it's not exactly easy stuff, but it's much more interesting than hanon and will also teach you about phrasing and terrace dynamics as you go. get a recording of someone good playing them to guide your practice as well. this one is highly endorsed:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 7/$%7B0%7D

an alternative is to get bartok's mikrokosmos, which is progressive and will teach you a lot about rhythm and dynamics as well. here's a good recording of this one as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Bela-Bartok-Mikro ... B0000028MQ

[lingyai]

I just checked out Hanon on youtube and, yeah, seems ultra tedious. So what is a less dreary substitute? Any way this can be made even remotely fun?

Should I interpret the lack of response to this question to mean the answer is no?

i'd say getting something like bach's well tempered clavier and really learning a few pieces inside and out will do wonders for your technique. it's not exactly easy stuff, but it's much more interesting than hanon and will also teach you about phrasing and terrace dynamics as you go. get a recording of someone good playing them to guide your practice as well. this one is highly endorsed:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 7/$%7B0%7D

an alternative is to get bartok's mikrokosmos, which is progressive and will teach you a lot about rhythm and dynamics as well. here's a good recording of this one as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Bela-Bartok-Mikro ... B0000028MQ

Thanks very much.

By the way, by "progressive" I assume you mean it starts easy and gets harder?

[jopy]

By the way, by "progressive" I assume you mean it starts easy and gets harder?

yep.

[lingyai]

Just had a listen...

I'm a beginner, probably should have mentioned that... Even the first measures of Book 1 of the Bach is way beyond my ability.... Also listened to the first 10 minutes of the start of Bartok... it seems easier, but sounds like a lifetime of grey Sunday afternoons. Hoo boy... think I'm going to have to reconsider this!

[tapper mike]

so, you're using it as completely objective. been a while since I thought of the guitar that way.

I conceive guitar lines on a keyboard, unable to do much with a keyboard, a discipline to abstract it in the other direction, lines that aren't tied to and kind of hand pattern... some of these are next to impossible though they don't necessarily sound like it.

now you have me thinking to get ahold of the Slonimsky

Yes, There are things that I can do on a ztar that I've never thought possible not for the instrument but for the way my playing style has developed over the years. There are other things that I concieve as entirely possible that should be inherantly easier that I can't achieve. There is no point in me doing everything I've already done.

[tapper mike]

Just had a listen...

I'm a beginner, probably should have mentioned that... Even the first measures of Book 1 of the Bach is way beyond my ability.... Also listened to the first 10 minutes of the start of Bartok... it seems easier, but sounds like a lifetime of grey Sunday afternoons. Hoo boy... think I'm going to have to reconsider this!

Honestly it's about where you want to go with the instrument. Hannon will give you some dexterity but it's not an ends just a means (and it's easier then Bach or Bartok) Your not going to gain mastery of the instrument on a sunday regardless of how long you practice on that sunday or how many sundays you spend on it.

If your starting out on an instrument you need to do a little every day. Half an hour of focused study (an hour if you can spare it) every day is much much more effective then 5 or six hours one day a week. You'll never master the blues if you take classical instruction and vice versa. A lot of times we make progress that we don't see for ourselves but others do. This is one of several reasons it's good to have an irl teacher. Learn good habits, correct bad habits focus on goals and get honest feedback on development.

[lingyai]

Just had a listen...

I'm a beginner, probably should have mentioned that... Even the first measures of Book 1 of the Bach is way beyond my ability.... Also listened to the first 10 minutes of the start of Bartok... it seems easier, but sounds like a lifetime of grey Sunday afternoons. Hoo boy... think I'm going to have to reconsider this!

Honestly it's about where you want to go with the instrument. Hannon will give you some dexterity but it's not an ends just a means (and it's easier then Bach or Bartok) Your not going to gain mastery of the instrument on a sunday regardless of how long you practice on that sunday or how many sundays you spend on it.

If your starting out on an instrument you need to do a little every day. Half an hour of focused study (an hour if you can spare it) every day is much much more effective then 5 or six hours one day a week. You'll never master the blues if you take classical instruction and vice versa. A lot of times we make progress that we don't see for ourselves but others do. This is one of several reasons it's good to have an irl teacher. Learn good habits, correct bad habits focus on goals and get honest feedback on development.

I appreciate that, thanks.

But just to clarify -- by "a lifetime of grey Sunday afternoons" I wasn't referring to an intended study routine -- it was a metaphor for how depressing Mikrokosmos sounds to me. My first draft of that sentence was actually "it sounds like something to induce suicide". I need not only long-term payoff for effort, but some near-term as well, namely, what I'm practicising at least needs to sound gratifying to get right. Maybe I'm too unsophisticated to "get" that piece; so be it; but it makes me want to run water in one ear until it exits the other. I could end up hating the piano!

[sjm]

My answer to your original question:
Knowing scales is important for composition in that it'll make it much easier and less hit and miss. You'll know the notes that should fit the piece. Knowing the different scales used in different musical styles will help you play and compose in those styles.

Practicing scales as you would in a classical learning situation is beneficial in as much as it trains your motor skills. It improves your finger movement etc.

But, equally, simply playing your instrument improves your motor skills. Personally I hated practicing scales in the classical sense. There's another way to practice scales that - at least for me - is much more gratifying. Go to youtube, start up one of your favorite songs and just jam along playing a lead melody. At least to start off with, play along with things that don't change keys. Moonlight Shadow (Mike Oldfield) is a great song to play along with on the guitar for example, and will teach you to play in C# natural minor/E major (IIRC). Much of pop/rock/blues/folk/country and their derivatives is all in just one key, with the songs following very simple harmonic structures. You can move to more elaborate stuff once you've got the basics down.

Learning to improvise your own melodies using a scale in this way is also much more conducive to learning to compose IMHO. But the really important thing is to make music every day, even if it's only for a few minutes. Like any skill, the only way to learn and to improve is to do it - this applies to both learning to play an instrument and learning to compose.

[jopy]

if you don't like what you're hearing from bartok and bach is too advanced, you might like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Alfreds-Basic-Adu ... 0882846167

it's really a pretty good book and the exercises are reasonably interesting. learning from this book will get you started on scales, chords, melody, and even a bit of orchestration (since all piano playing involves some orchestration).