The only downside to u-he software

[JD Gaffe]

This is obviously lagavulin16's attempt at subtly suggesting to become Urs' apprentice, so that he may one day carry the scepter of power after Urs runs into an 'accident'. Perhaps with a bus.

[Mushy Mushy]

This is what I don't understand and makes me feel sorry for developers.
They sell the software and theyre locked in in perpetuity with maintenance expectations.
Surely there should be a "warranty" period, beyond which updates/maintenance cannot be guaranteed.

You mean like Android phones?!

Not sure mate, don't have one.

[Krakatau]

While I hate to sound morbid, there is always the off chance that Urs could get hit by a bus, get sick of programming, or join a monestary.

Or he could prove black is white and promptly get run over at the next zebra crossing.

[/HitchhikersGuideToTheGalaxy]

very stroboscopic suggestion, isn't it ?

[abstractcats]

Actually, a very good question. I've wondered this about devs. Are users screwed? Not with Zebra

And yes, quit programing, before the "run over by a herd of Zebra" or one Gray Hound..

[abstractcats]

Or run over by a herd of half wild domestic short hairs

[ThomasHelzle]

Funny that you should mention NI as an example for reliability?
They drop products like there is no tomorrow, no matter their size.
As does Apple, Adobe, Autodesk.
Google currently closes down more services than I ever knew they had.

My personal experience is rather the opposite of what you suppose:
Good Small companies usually are way more reliable than big ones when it comes to support. A single developer even may go the extra mile and help you out personally when a big one just follows some "rules", as stupid as they may be.
And a big company can go out of business just as fast as a small one, as current times show to us so plentifully.
Try to get support then.

Everything changes, everything is in flux, one day you will die, so will Urs, me, Apple, Microsoft and the pope.

There was a time when nobody could imagine a world without Silicon Graphics.
Think of Detroit many years ago and today.

Whenever possible, I buy from small companies.
Especially NI - as much as I would like to own Kontakt - is one of the most fishy companies in my view when it comes to long time reliability. Therefore I never bought anything from them so far.

But it's just my view and as you said, nothing I could say will change your mind, only you yourself can do that

Cheers and peace,

Thomas

[EvilDragon]

SGI. *_*

[lagavulin16]

Funny that you should mention NI as an example for reliability?
They drop products like there is no tomorrow, no matter their size.
As does Apple, Adobe, Autodesk.
Google currently closes down more services than I ever knew they had.

My personal experience is rather the opposite of what you suppose:
Good Small companies usually are way more reliable than big ones when it comes to support. A single developer even may go the extra mile and help you out personally when a big one just follows some "rules", as stupid as they may be.
And a big company can go out of business just as fast as a small one, as current times show to us so plentifully.
Try to get support then.

Everything changes, everything is in flux, one day you will die, so will Urs, me, Apple, Microsoft and the pope.

There was a time when nobody could imagine a world without Silicon Graphics.
Think of Detroit many years ago and today.

Whenever possible, I buy from small companies.
Especially NI - as much as I would like to own Kontakt - is one of the most fishy companies in my view when it comes to long time reliability. Therefore I never bought anything from them so far.

But it's just my view and as you said, nothing I could say will change your mind, only you yourself can do that

Cheers and peace,

Thomas

NI may be a bad example, I'm a Kore owner and certainly know of what you speak - but I also trust that they will offer upgrade/crossgrades (which they have) and that their true flagships (Kontakt, Komplete) aren't getting killed off anytime soon.

For the record, NI is not high on my rating system.

[ThomasHelzle]

Ok, so what's your point?

[TwoToneshuzz]

Interesting topic. I have used music software for around 20 years, and it just sort dies out at some point. I don't believe this it's the developers fault alone. It more that the Hardware out distances the software at some point. At least that is how it seems to me. At some point a new chip comes out that uses a so radically refined or developed computaional architecture that the software has to be totally rewritten. The periferial devices need to be upgraded. At these turning points software programs fall away. In a way isn't it better to drop the obsolete tech and build on the new more powerful hardware?

Keeping a legacy system running is doable for maybe 10 15 or 20 years. Plenty of time to get way more out of it than your so called "monies worth" If you are an end of life user, about to change to another career or to dust. Then I don't see how the economics of upgrading at a late stage in the game makes sense. You know and enjoy your tools learn how to keep them running as long as possible and relax and enjoy the ride.. If there is still interest in new equipment when you are 80, well you could just inheret som "so last year" equipment from your grandchildren, in 2040 for example that should be pretty nicely spec'd out..

Wade

[lagavulin16]

Ok, so what's your point?

Hardware is going to maintain what it is able to do, provided that there are parts and people who can repair them, indefinitely.

Software is going to maintain what it is able to do as long as it is supported by the developer, the developer is still in business, and the developer chooses to maintain it or offer an upgrade to a similar product as time goes on.

Buying software from a company like Adobe, you expect upgrade paths, continued support, and development going forward. This is why you were able to upgrade the copy of Photoshop you bought in 1992, and you still can, even to this day.

If Adobe were run by one guy, and he died in 1994, you'd be using Photoshop circa 1994 if you could find a computer that would run it. And if it had any value to you, based on how far computers have come along since then.

But to answer your question succinctly: Owning software from a company that consists of a single person is riskier than owning software from a large company. If Urs quits, the versions of Zebra, Ace, Diva, and whatever else we have could potentially be it (though he said this isn't actually the case). If a programmer at NI quits, no worries, Komplete 9 will be ready for you next year.

[ThomasHelzle]

Repair Hardware indefinitely?
Wow.

Where can I get my Miro Crystal 24s ISA Graphics Card repaired?
And my Miro CRT monitor from 1995?

A friend of mine just happened to spill his coffee over his rather new MacBookPro. Repair would have been as expensive as a new one.
He got a new one.

And no, you can't update the Photoshop from 1994 to CS5.5, so far Adobe only allowed updates from 3 versions back, and now they just announced that beginning with CS6, you can only update from one version before, which is CS5 or CS5.5.
Greedy bastards.
I just decided to no longer update my Design Suite Premium.
Hopefully this will finally lead to somebody creating an alternative to Photoshop.

I have an Illustrator 9 box standing here to rot. You can't update it anymore and it doesn't work well under Windows 7 64 Bit.
My only option is to buy a full new version.

If Photoshop (I still have the floppies for 2.5 somewhere) would have ended in 1994, nobody whould know what it was today and you would use something else.
BTW. It was originally created by a student for the first Starwars movie to manipulate framebuffers, not by a big company ...

I can't count the software packages I bought over the years from small and big companies and only about 40% exist anymore.

Before Photoshop 3 came out with Layers, there was a software called Fauve Matisse that had layers. IT WAS AMAZING, a complete game changer.
I bought it.
I never heard of it again.

Macromedia once had a 3D Software called Extreme 3D - after 2 versions it was discontinued without compensation.

I bought a WinZip lifetime license back at Compuserve. I really loved it, but at one point another company bought Nico Mak out and suddenly I was supposed to pay for updates.
I didn't.
I found 7zip.

With big companies, it's a different game, they usually want to suck you dry, press you into some kind of subscription or maintenance etc., but you're just as f...ed when Apple buys Shake, which was a very high profile digital compositing software, ground-breaking in it's time, and then suddenly is letting it die without warning.
There is no alternative from them and you don't get any kind of update or compensation (Well, it came in a solid box and I used it as a loudspeaker stand for a while...).

And that is all that I am saying.

Whatever you do, you're wagering on something.
It may happen like you hope or not.

Some things may live for a long time, but then, they may become obsolete anyway by new developments.

Of all things to consider if you want to use one of Urs' wonderful plugins in the NOW, the possibility of him dying at one point is the least relevant IMO.

But if it actually bothers you, just buy tools from big companies.


Cheers,

Thomas

[Urs]

Well, I wouldn't know why I should quit, other than being hit by a bus.

For pretty much every other case there is no need to worry. The buiness is doing fine. The new website has made up for the raised expenses, and the future outlook is just stunning. We may be small, but we're pretty solid

[3ee]

Well, I wouldn't know why I should quit, other than being hit by a bus.

Just.. look both ways when crossing the street and you'll be fine and always be crossing the street using a Zebra ...green means go!


lagavulin16, are you a bus driver?

Getting hit by a buss ... I'm pretty sure that after DIVA gets released, the bus is going to be hit by Urs...

[TwoToneshuzz]

Ok, so what's your point?

Hardware is going to maintain what it is able to do, provided that there are parts and people who can repair them, indefinitely.

Software is going to maintain what it is able to do as long as it is supported by the developer, the developer is still in business, and the developer chooses to maintain it or offer an upgrade to a similar product as time goes on.

I guess you are right there, but what do we do now when we know this.. I think the time frame for software upgrades reaches a limit for companies big or small.

Also if you look at the cost of several major upgrades to Photoshops over say 20 years you would be able to buy the new version outright at some point. Which reflects that with time even if it's still called photoshop it has developed to the point where it is almost unrecognizable.

If you are really worried about this issue I don't know where you can get any help, I guess for you the best choice would to keep to the bigger companies it'll perhaps be safer, but also a little boring too.

I'm happy if I can use a good software like ACE or Filterscape or UHBIK now for a few years.. I doubt that I'd find these tools so interesting in 10 years.. It's the nature of the technology that it develops to a point, then becomes obsolete with time..

I think a solution could be to hedge your bets and have a few programs with the big companies and a few with the smaller ones.. I think pricing for independent software often reflects just this concern about longevity and is therefore often very competitively priced..

A final thought, the relationship with a small developer can often be dynamic with good communication and bug fixes improvements based on the wishes of a small users base. Isn't that also a positve value in the equation? We get to communicate with the developers of our tools and perhaps learn of some of the deeper motivations behind features and design decisions that in the very least is added interest, infotainment, and can help a user grasp the possiblities within the plugin/software. A small developer is a teacher in a way that a large company isn't able to follow because of the serious investments and infrastructure involved. In a large company..Patent concerns and such information has to be strictly controlled. A small company is in the know about these issues and so can perhaps have a more coherent and useful communication flow to their user base.

Amother point; how do you know that a feature that you are interested is something the will be further developed if the specific personale involved in its development leave these SAFE large companies.. Large companies can also be manned by individuals that are so specielized that when they leave the development of specific project/feature area these development groups lose a primus motor...And your so wished for feature or bug fix becomes vapourware or the bug remains unsquashed..

Wade