M4 Test

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Trancit wrote:You always assume, that at that point in the track, there is already a part...You are wrong, there isn't any...

And that brings one issue on the table: To load up an existing Sequence at a point, where is none at the moment, you have first to create a new sequence or copy one to this place to be able to use the features you mentioned...
In MuLab 3, imho, it was much easier to doubleclick somewhere in the track, choose an existing sequence eh voila, it appears at the wanted position...what's wrong with that...
The penalty of that is that you *always* get a popup when drawing a new part. And that's not ideal. General rule = the less popups the better. Only popup when really necessary.

In M4, that textual popup has been replaced by a much more graphic popup (that's a win already) and that popup *only* appears when MuLab really needs your input, and that's much less than in M3, so the benefit is faster workflow in most of the times, i think.

Now i'll focus on your specific workflow.
I'll talk about sequence parts, but the same applies to audio parts.

Case 1: you want to draw a new part and open a sequence from disk.
Indeed draw a new part and use one of the methods in my previus post to open the sequence file. Yes this is 1 step extra in this case, but you spare a step whenever you want to draw a new sequence part. So i think things are balanced in this case.

Now thinking further on this case, i'll add support that dropping a MuSequence file onto the composer also creates a new sequence part, just as with audio and MIDI files. And when that's supported, you can also add sequences files in 1 go, which hopefully is extra support for your workflow.

Case 2: you want to draw a new part and reuse an existing one.
Well, why not copy the part from elsewhere in the composition?
That's also only 1 step.
Now in the more exceptional case you want to reuse a pooled but unused sequence, yes in that case you need the extra step too.
But i think this is, statisticly, a more exceptional case, and i'm convinced that the benefits of the new approach are much bigger than the limited cases where you need a gentle extra step.

That's how i see it.

What's your view?
That means to me double work and I always have unused sequences in the manager and popup lists, which I have to delete all the time...
Yes i'm aware of that, and that's a point still on the wishlist: I want MuLab to auto-delete pooled sequences that are empty. That should be in there to complete this new approach. Will do.
we need a better one to be able to load an existing sequence at a wished point, without creating a new part...perhaps a shortcut like CTRL Click = new behaviour and ALT Click = the open sequence menu appears.
Even without looking if there is still room for such key combis (at first i don't think so, think they're all taken), i do want to minimize the use of very specific key combis as much as possible. Standard well-known key combis like Ctrl+drag to copy are more ok as most people know them from start.

I rather want to make use of the shortcut system, because then the user has the freedom to set things up as he wants.

But also because i'm managing MuLab in such way that it evolves towards the tablets and mobiles, where everything is done using your fingers, without modifiers keys, and as graphical as possible. That's also right-side brain based, so i think that's a good direction. Of course MuLab is not yet fully there, but i'm seriously taking this into account. Hope this background info helps in understanding this decission.

Open for your feedback.

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mutools wrote: Hope this background info helps in understanding this decission.

Open for your feedback.
To be honest...not really...sorry.

To put up with restrictions to benefit mobile apps is a big slap in the face for me, because I am a very very big antagonist of such toys...this mobile world isn't really an alternative,... it is and will ever be a toy, that only has disadvantages... it's only to make money with nearly unuseable nonsense and point only one way: We are loosing focus on the real life more and more and what is even worse: We are breeding a huge gaggle of blithering idots...our kids... they are not able to focus on anything more than a second other than gaming, chatting and all the other nonsense stuff...

But back to the topic:

Copying an existing part isn't really an alternative, because they are often "many bars away", means a lot of scrolling...

The other options are useable, but for me a huge step backwards...I will never like it, but perhaps, it's just me...

About drag n drop of files: It is for me generally only an option for a program, which has an own file browser, which is permanately visible (if you wish so) like FL Studio, Ableton Live, Studio 1 and many others...
Because of the lack of something like this in MuLab, it's again a big step backwards... and dealing with an external explorer isn't an option for me...
If you want drag n drop functionality of files to improve the workflow, first you have to make these files easy accesseable!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps I am very special, perhaps too special in my workflow, but these things you want to change for MuLab 4 aren't very well implemented...
I don't think it is the right way for an existing programm, if you want to make improvements, that you loose on the other hand existing functionalities completely...that I wouldn't call an improvement but a change, which perhaps will fit other people and will perhaps scare off existing customers to whom this previous function was a main feature...
I didn't say anything to many issues I noticed during the changes made from the first beta, but I can tell, there are more steps backward than foreward to me and the more I read the replies here on this thread, the more I get the feeling that I use the wrong programm...
Not in terms, what MuLab offers (or meanwhile offered before), but what the majority of the responding people asking for...

Just to give an example here:
MuLabs audio engine (as a DAW) is a milestone behind every other product on the market in terms of Multicore support (which is absolutely essential in our times, in which no more gains are reached in terms of CPU velocity but in dividing the threads on multiple processors), APDC...

Instead we are talking here about changing things from A to B, where some people like A better and some B...
Of course, it is nice dragging parameters on tracks and all these little gimmicks, but when it comes to make a song with about 50 tracks and all the instruments and effects you need for them... those features would be on place 537.243 on my wishlist in comparison to the restructuring of the audio engine...

We have changes from beta to beta how big the virtual piano on the screen should be and much more of those really really important things, when it come to making music...
Honestely...are you really serious with that...

Just my 2 cents, but they are brutally honest... I expected a lot of the new version, I was very happy as I saw the first list of changes, but meanwhile I am very dissapointed because of the direction further development points to...

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But enough whining...lets be constructive :wink:

What about an entry in the track context menu as well for loading a sequence and inserting at the cursor (snapping to grid)...

This would be a workaround having to insert an unwanted sequence first...

And by the way: Even if I am not agreed with some points of the development here, but all "sounding" components sound very very good...a big compliment here to your programming skills :love:

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Slightly unrelated: How many of the "serious" DAWs have also mobile versions ?
Pro Tools? Cubase? Cakewalk? Reason? Logic?... (don't know, just asking).

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sorohanro wrote:Slightly unrelated: How many of the "serious" DAWs have also mobile versions ?
Pro Tools? Cubase? Cakewalk? Reason? Logic?... (don't know, just asking).
FL Studio, energyXT, iMachine (I know it's not a DAW but it's amazingly fum ), Reason it's planning to and it could be awesome, MuLab... :pray:
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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Trancit wrote:To put up with restrictions to benefit mobile apps is a big slap in the face for me, because I am a very very big antagonist of such toys...this mobile world isn't really an alternative,... it is and will ever be a toy, that only has disadvantages... it's only to make money with nearly unuseable nonsense and point only one way: We are loosing focus on the real life more and more and what is even worse: We are breeding a huge gaggle of blithering idots...our kids... they are not able to focus on anything more than a second other than gaming, chatting and all the other nonsense stuff...
I agree with you that we live in much too much commercial world where everything is much too much materialistic. That results in more unhappy people with all consequences of that. I wish people where more concerned about integrity and spirtual wellness as well. Yin Yang. I won't go on on this as that's OT here.

That said, i do believe that the easiness and instantness of the tablets/mobiles is a step foward for many people.
It makes 'computers' more accessible.

In the end, i want to address the best of all worlds.

The fact that i try to reduce the number of popups, clicks, text, special predefined key-combis is something that is a good thing on all platforms, it's basic ergonomy. Of course not all people work the same way and i can't make a perfect app for all, that's clear. Doing my best though.

I don't think i'm adding "restrictions" to M4 by changing that draw new part behaviour.

I understand and accept your warning though.
Copying an existing part isn't really an alternative, because they are often "many bars away", means a lot of scrolling...
Zoom Out + Zoom In with mousewheel = Much faster than scrolling.
About drag n drop of files: It is for me generally only an option for a program, which has an own file browser, which is permanately visible (if you wish so) like FL Studio, Ableton Live, Studio 1 and many others...
I understand. And that's coming.
Perhaps I am very special, perhaps too special in my workflow, but these things you want to change for MuLab 4 aren't very well implemented...
I don't think it is the right way for an existing programm, if you want to make improvements, that you loose on the other hand existing functionalities completely...
Sorry but i don't see what functionalities we're 'completly loosing'.
It's only about an extra click in certain cases while we have one click less in many more other cases. It's about a re-balance.
that I wouldn't call an improvement but a change, which perhaps will fit other people and will perhaps scare off existing customers to whom this previous function was a main feature...
I'm curious what others think of this.
Is this change is a step forward, or a step backward?
I didn't say anything to many issues I noticed during the changes made from the first beta, but I can tell, there are more steps backward than foreward to me and the more I read the replies here on this thread, the more I get the feeling that I use the wrong programm...
That's possible.

I can only ask: Which are the other changes in M4 you don't like?
MuLabs audio engine (as a DAW) is a milestone behind every other product on the market in terms of Multicore support (which is absolutely essential in our times, in which no more gains are reached in terms of CPU velocity but in dividing the threads on multiple processors)
I'm 100% aware of the need for multi-core.
And really: It's the next absolute top priority.

But should i wait with sharing M4 until it has multi-core?
That could take another couple of months, i don't know.
I can't afford that. And it will stress me like hell.

So i think it's better to share M4 in its current new shape and hopefully i'll find the resources to create M5 asap!
We have changes from beta to beta how big the virtual piano on the screen should be and much more of those really really important things, when it come to making music...
Honestely...are you really serious with that...
The finetunings about the top panels took 5 minutes so to say.
Creating M4 took more than a full-time year!!! (without much income!!!)

M4 is mainly about the MUX and about enhanced worflow and about further integration between the sequencer and the modular power. And about the MuDrum and the MuSynth. Etc... cfr http://www.mutools.com/m4-info.html

Of course it's disappointing for me to read that the 'draw new part' aspect is much more disadvantage to you than all the new & improved features in M4.
Just my 2 cents, but they are brutally honest... I expected a lot of the new version, I was very happy as I saw the first list of changes, but meanwhile I am very dissapointed because of the direction further development points to...
Pointing to where? (your opinion)

Ok, as far as i know you, you're a very hi-tech musician which is great.
I hope you discovered all the new features and powers in the M4 modular system. I can only hope you appreciate the exceptional integration between this modular universe and a traditional yet flexible sequencer.

And i can only hope that you try to understand that i also try to make MuLab as easy as possible to kids/newbies who are just starting out making music. And such things as the M3 new part popup is not really fun to them at first.
Call it 'commercial', i try to make MuLab survive, even more, let it grow. Therefore i need to make it attractive to as many people as possible, not *only* the power users.

I want MuLab to be friendly to kids and newbies. At the same time i want MuLab to offer a vast sonic workspace to power users and a lot of flexibility. But without compromising that basic easiness which is essential to kids and newbies. I don't see how this essential easiness could hurt power users as each power user still is a kid in some way, but not the other way around.

Although i know M4 is not perfect (what app is perfect?) i am proud on M4 and i think it's a big step forward in its evolution and it answers to most of these criteria, which is exceptional, imho.

Just writing all this to share my view.
So it will make it more easy for you to decide whether MuLab still is a good tool for you.

Thanks for your straight feedback, much appreciated!
Last edited by MuTools on Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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I don't know if pads are a fad or not but I can see touchscreens becoming the standard within the next say 5-10 years(?).

I wasn't aware of any mobile/pad-friendly changes making anything harder for me compared to earlier versions, but then maybe I don't use the function in question often.

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mutools wrote:M4076 will (normally) be there tomorrow afternoon (CET).
It will also contain a nicer knob, and some other improvements :)
Next update not yet ready for some new bugs have been discovered.
Will first fix & finish all, then publish the new package.

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Don't know about FL or Energy, but iMaschine is just a toy, not a serious music making program, good for "killing time" not to express deep feelings, philosophical ideas or complex moods(like all the music is, as we all know).
How many of you would think that you walk in a professional studio if you would see a iPhone as the main console ? or a iPad ?
Would you think is a professional studio ?
Would you buy their services ?
Now, don't get me wrong, but I would totally hate if Mu.Lab would became just a shiny toy, an instrument of entertaining not a powerful music making tool, optimized for idiots instead of musicians (close concepts, I know, but still a bit different).

On the other hand, I would LOVE an interface where you could touch and turn a knob instead of grabbing it by mouse. So maybe Jo is right. His concept made Mu.Lab in the first place after all...
Last edited by sorohanro on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Trancit wrote:I get the feeling that I use the wrong programm...
No to start an argument but where is in the world "The Right Program"?
Can we look slightly ahead and see perhaps what direction MuLab is going?
For me M4 is beginning to look like a concrete move toward a definitive step and commitment in defining the uniqueness of MuLab as a DAW and as a modular system.
I adopted my workflow to it when I first used it because my way is just a negotiation between me and the tool. Now the tool is morphing and so my ways are to be a little challenged, which is a healthy thing to do, and maybe, I'm saying more than probably, M4 it's going to be a good way to refresh even my old, usual way of working and keep growing. Stimulus = Growth
Wrong Tool? Nah! Wrong Approach.. :D
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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liquidsound wrote:Stimulus = Growth
Wrong Tool? Nah! Wrong Approach.. :D
THIS !!!
Good point.

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mutools wrote:
About drag n drop of files: It is for me generally only an option for a program, which has an own file browser, which is permanately visible (if you wish so) like FL Studio, Ableton Live, Studio 1 and many others...
I understand. And that's coming.
Would be great to see.
Perhaps I am very special, perhaps too special in my workflow, but these things you want to change for MuLab 4 aren't very well implemented...
I don't think it is the right way for an existing programm, if you want to make improvements, that you loose on the other hand existing functionalities completely...
Sorry but i don't see what functionalities we're 'completly loosing'.
It's only about an extra click in certain cases while we have one click less in many more other cases. It's about a re-balance.
That's really a question, if you ask me...
If you are working on a song, do you really insert new empty sequences that much, or do you do more repeating and copying existing ones to duplicate and changing the content...
For me, it's about 1% inserting new sequences (only the first ones on the most tracks (I sometimes copy them between the tracks)) and 99% I do the rest...
If your workflow is similar, you really loose a big part of your workflow.
The reason, why it is such important for me, is the kind of music I do...

In Trance music, you work a lot (really a "big" lot) with periodically repeating events, like fills, crashes and so on...It's totally different, where I place them...for me, it prooved to be the best way, during playing the song, I notice ...oh, that event would be great there...in Mulab 3...no problem, just doubleclick, choose the existing event and done, while the music was playing, that you don't loose the feeling of the song...impossible now, because the named workarounds take too much time and attention for this special situation.
that I wouldn't call an improvement but a change, which perhaps will fit other people and will perhaps scare off existing customers to whom this previous function was a main feature...
I'm curious what others think of this.
Is this change is a step forward, or a step backward?
I am too...
I can only ask: Which are the other changes in M4 you don't like?
It was not so about the changes, which were made, more the discussed and than often changed issues, like changing the first programm screen to the internal menu..., where to place which menu, how big should be the on screen keyboard, the colouring from A to B to A to C...
All, personally for me, absolutely secondary stuff, about one may disuss, if really important stuff is done...this is why I sometimes think, am I really right here???
A next thing, is this meanwhile really huge on screen piano...don't you think, there is a good reason, why many "Big Boys" on the daw/host market have one, but hidden, that only people open it, who really need it...this huge thing makes MuLab looks like a toy for children...
I do believe, that everybody, who makes music serioulsely does have a "real" one...
As I opened MuLab 4 now (I didn't for quite long time) all I saw, was this reall huge thing and honestly I needed some time to "find" the menu buttons because my eyes were catched by this thing
MuLabs audio engine (as a DAW) is a milestone behind every other product on the market in terms of Multicore support (which is absolutely essential in our times, in which no more gains are reached in terms of CPU velocity but in dividing the threads on multiple processors)
I'm 100% aware of the need for multi-core.
And really: It's the next absolute top priority.

But should i wait with sharing M4 until it has multi-core?
That could take another couple of months, i don't know.
I can't afford that. And it will stress me like hell.
Definetely no...
So i think it's better to share M4 in its current new shape and hopefully i'll find the resources to create M5 asap!
Exactly, do it, release it and move on...that's what I am talking about... and:
We have changes from beta to beta how big the virtual piano on the screen should be and much more of those really really important things, when it come to making music...
Honestely...are you really serious with that...
The finetunings about the top panels took 5 minutes so to say.
Creating M4 took more than a full-time year!!! (without much income!!!)
I don't believe, that all those minor changes many people claimed here for with all the discussions only took 5 minutes of your time...I guess, there were more than hours...not only time to program, it's your brain filled with secondary stuff, wasted rescources of a genius mind here... that was the reason, why I didn't reply all the time...I didn't want to waste even more time...
M4 is mainly about the MUX and about enhanced worflow and about further integration between the sequencer and the modular power. And about the MuDrum and the MuSynth. Etc... cfr http://www.mutools.com/m4-info.html

Of course it's disappointing for me to read that the 'draw new part' aspect is much more disadvantage to you than all the new & improved features in M4.
Ok, I have to confess...I overdid it a little bit ...the changes in terms of usage of the modules are very good as well as the cpu optimizations
Just my 2 cents, but they are brutally honest... I expected a lot of the new version, I was very happy as I saw the first list of changes, but meanwhile I am very dissapointed because of the direction further development points to...
Pointing to where? (your opinion)
That you are catched by those minor changes and in the special case mentioned above, you stole my "special workflow"...:8
I hope you discovered all the new features and powers in the M4 modular system. I can only hope you appreciate the exceptional integration between this modular universe and a traditional yet flexible sequencer.
I do, that's the reason, why we are still disussing here :8
And i can only hope that you try to understand that i also try to make MuLab as easy as possible to kids/newbies who are just starting out making music. And such things as the M3 new part popup is not really fun to them at first.
Call it 'commercial', i try to make MuLab survive, even more, let it grow. Therefore i need to make it attractive to as many people as possible, not *only* the power users.

I want MuLab to be friendly to kids and newbies. At the same time i want MuLab to offer a vast sonic workspace to power users and a lot of flexibility. But without compromising that basic easiness which is essential to kids and newbies. I don't see how this essential easiness could hurt power users as each power user still is a kid in some way, but not the other way around.
That's a really fine line, on which you want to walk on...
I do understand, that you have to make MuLab a surviving product and of course I am totally with you...but do I think, this is the right way...I am not sure...
If I have a look at FL Studio, which (I believe) is the tool most kids and starters use or first try out, than I cannot admit, that simplicity is the key feature...
FLS's key to success is it's complete package...it is an "all-in-one wonder", you buy one package and it does really all you need, lifetime free upgrades inclusive...but therefore, you have to learn the "FLS way" ...either you learn it or you'll never get your head around it...and the people do, they spend years on learning this thingy inside out...

I don't think, the key to success is a very easy to use workflow (which automatically ends up in restrictions for advanced users), it's the pure technical data...what do I get...
Especially kids in our times looking for faster, bigger, better and more...
Although i know M4 is not perfect (what app is perfect?) i am proud on M4 and i think it's a big step forward in its evolution and it answers to most of these criteria, which is exceptional, imho.

Just writing all this to share my view.
So it will make it more easy for you to decide whether MuLab still is a good tool for you.

Thanks for your straight feedback, much appreciated!
No app is perfect and you should be proud on your work...
Sadly, I overdo often some critics as soon as I get obsessed with a topic ...

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Okay, someone was telling me "M4" is awesome, but I'm not sure where to get it. I've looked a couple pages from the beginning and end and poked around the mutools website, maybe I just missed it.

On the topic of touch-screen friendly interfaces though, I'd like to throw in a few comments that may or may not be relevant to the discussion:
  • 1. It's clear to me that mobile is the future for most people.
    2. Professionals will continue to use laptops and workstations in addition to these smaller devices.
    3. Multitouch makes touchscreen-life worth living. If your app doesn't support it, then it might be too early to phase out other forms of interaction.
    4. Configurable keymaps may keyboard-life worth living. Streamline all you want, but don't take away our ability to use our modifier keys if we so choose.
I work in the technology space, have worked on UIs designed for desktops and mobile devices, so these are things that concern me, so I've thought about them a lot. It takes extra work to provide the versatility to transparently shift between interface paradigms, and its essentially impossible to do everything. One thing I've learned though is that users absolutely *hate* when they suddenly can't do something they were used to doing, even if there's a better way to do it now.
noise and beats: Negutyv Xeiro do people actually click these?
gearlust: Roland JP-8000, too much/not enough eurorack
machinecode by: u-he, Bitwig, Fabfilter, NI, et al

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i must say that despite the exhaustive list of changes and all of the awesome new features and the patience with which jo responds to eveyone's concerns, i feel like the 'getting around' factor has diminished somewhat. i know it sounds trivial but i want a window to stay on the task bar once put there, hidden or not.

i dont see why there cant be multiple ways of doing simple things. i dont have a mouse wheel as i use a touch surface. so requiring one to zoom or display a different key range seems like a bad idea. not conforming to standard platform concepts also seems to go against mulabs goal of ease of use, or no0b friendliness.

when i bring these up everyone seems to chime in with 'its jo's vision that is most important here' and that seems to counter his stated intention to appeal to all these different demographics. i would like to ask: which is it? should i just keep quiet about the 'getting around' factor? am i intruding when i express my wishes? i honestly havent tried every new feature in depth yet but to me the simple workspace navigation needs improvement. how can i appreciate the in depth features when navigation (the way i do things) didnt get any attention? i want to show/hide any window at random while keeping my mouse in the same place on the screen. to hide a window by moving the mouse all the way to the top right corner (on todays BIG screens) to push the hide button is a needless activity especially when we have a 'task bar'. for that task bar not to behave the same as any system task bar makes no sense to me. this is what makes me think a no0b would say 'what? why is this different from what i already know'

by the way, i found fxpansion geist and its quickly become my favorite way to program drum parts. it reminds me so much of muzys its not funny! navigation is partly responsible for my thumbs up. you can get around that plugin easy! i want to feel that way about mulab.

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Last edited by > DiGiT < on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Trancit wrote:
mutools wrote:
About drag n drop of files: It is for me generally only an option for a program, which has an own file browser, which is permanately visible (if you wish so) like FL Studio, Ableton Live, Studio 1 and many others...
I understand. And that's coming.
Would be great to see.
+1! :D

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