M4 Test

[MuTools]

To Trancit: About your beloved way of inserting sequences, i've been thinking further on this and instead of hard-coding some specific modifier key-combi to get you back at that M3 behaviour, what about this:

Assign a shortcut key to "Choose Sequence", for example the key
Now whenever you draw a new sequence part just press and you got that popup there. Ok, one hand has to press the key, but that's the same price as if it would need a modifier, so i think this is a good solution. What do you think?

And FYI: I already implemented the automatic deletion of empty+unused sequences, so the sequence list will stay clean

Next version is getting closer, hopefully by tomorrow.

[MuTools]

Okay, someone was telling me "M4" is awesome, but I'm not sure where to get it. I've looked a couple pages from the beginning and end and poked around the mutools website, maybe I just missed it.

Thanks for your interest in MuLab 4, short work name M4.

MuLab 4 still is in a modest test phase that's why it's not yet published on the website. Soon there will be a new test version, normally by tomorrow, please check back in this topic for the latest news.

New M4 test versions always appear in this webfolder:

http://www.mutools.com/mulab/cedar/

So you can also check there. Currently there are no M4 test zip packages there, i deleted them as some issues were discovered and i didn't want to spread those any further.

Talk soon!

[MuTools]

To all: i could not yet reply on all posts i want to reply, will continue the coming days, step by step, while also continuing the M4 works. Interesting and inspiring topics! Now i go out for a beer, or 2

Cheers!

[Nielzie]

Now i go out for a beer, or 2
Cheers!

Make that a few more beers and a good night sleep. Belgian beers = the best. I love Duvel Cheers!

[liquidsound]

Now i go out for a beer, or 2
Cheers!

Make that a few more beers and a good night sleep. Belgian beers = the best. I love Duvel Cheers!

Chimay Grand Reserve , I love that beer !

[Bonteburg]

Here's a crash that occured shortly after loading a plug (AradazMaximizer 5) and switching to the MU.LAB GUI again. For all I know it could be related to the plug but I'm sending you the log anyway (email).

Something weird just happened with MuPad: Element 3 turns itself off after
-muting it
-playing the patch with a keyboard or clicking notes on the piano roll in the editor
-unmuting it again.

Reloading the MuPad and reloading the preset both fix this.

Replicating this reliably isn't easy as it doesn't seem to happen all the time.

Edit: OK so when you mute Element 3 during playback, then play a few notes and stop playback, then unmute Element 3 again there's a good chance of it continuing to be muted. Then when you start playback again it starts again after a few notes.
So far I could only get the phenomenon with Fab Filter One. Cheeze Machine is behaving normally. I hope I'm not seeing things.


Marco

[xybre]

Okay, someone was telling me "M4" is awesome, but I'm not sure where to get it. I've looked a couple pages from the beginning and end and poked around the mutools website, maybe I just missed it.

http://www.mutools.com/mulab/cedar/

So you can also check there. Currently there are no M4 test zip packages there, i deleted them as some issues were discovered and i didn't want to spread those any further.

Cool, I'll keep an eye on it. I'll try not to be too demanding.

[liquidsound]

Okay, someone was telling me "M4" is awesome, but I'm not sure where to get it. I've looked a couple pages from the beginning and end and poked around the mutools website, maybe I just missed it.

http://www.mutools.com/mulab/cedar/

So you can also check there. Currently there are no M4 test zip packages there, i deleted them as some issues were discovered and i didn't want to spread those any further.

Cool, I'll keep an eye on it. I'll try not to be too demanding.

Nice to see you around here xybre!

[pdxindy]

I was reading in the forum and wanted to clarify a point... Does MuLab make use of multi-processors? One posts seemed to indicate it did not.

[Bonteburg]

No it doesn't. I think it's supposed to work as of v5. (this thread is about v4).

[Trancit]

To Trancit: About your beloved way of inserting sequences, i've been thinking further on this and instead of hard-coding some specific modifier key-combi to get you back at that M3 behaviour, what about this:

Assign a shortcut key to "Choose Sequence", for example the key
Now whenever you draw a new sequence part just press and you got that popup there. Ok, one hand has to press the key, but that's the same price as if it would need a modifier, so i think this is a good solution. What do you think?

And FYI: I already implemented the automatic deletion of empty+unused sequences, so the sequence list will stay clean

Next version is getting closer, hopefully by tomorrow.

Hi Jo,
thx for your effort to help me out here...because of the implemented automatic deletion of empty+unused parts, I think I can live with that...

Last thing I want to do is to belittle you effort, your kindness and your patience (especially with me ), but I honestly don't know, if I can share your further plans with MuLab for my work...
It is nothing about I wouldn't like these ideas, but it isn't "my way"

I am a very big fan of having one "allmighty" tool to work with...I am not that flexible anymore of doing one part here, the other one there and perhaps a third one too and at the end putting all together in a fourth app...
I am looking for something, I can make the way I want it to be and MuLabs modularity was an important key to realize that...
Sadly, I got all the time problems in different sections, where I didn't find a working way for me, either because it was not possible with MuLab or I was to silly/ unflexible to find the right way for me...

To really be able to make a decision wether further using MuLab or finding another alternative, I would need some very very serious input from you, of which I am not sure, if you really can and want to make those statements...

What I like most in MuLab (without any correct order):
1. It sounds very very good...
2. It's modularity...of course, it is the major keyfeature
3. The well integrated linear/pattern based workflow
4. How it feels... either how the pianoroll feels by inserting notes or working with existing ones or working in the trackpane...MuLab feels always "solid" (dunno how to describe)
5. The integrated functions to treat events/sequences
6. Every value is controlable by the mousewheel and, even more important, you chose the absolut correct way: By default changes by mousewheel have a very fine resolution...perfect!!! I cannot understand developers, who force you to use a modifier to reach a fine resolution, if even possible...
If I want to change a value in bigger increments, I can grab it with the mouse and move it...the mousewheel is all about finetuning...you are the only one, who did it right...big applaus here...
7. Last but not least, you... you do a great job in both, the quality of your work and the way you support it.

As I mentioned before, there are some things, I get in trouble with...:

1. Often mentioned: Multicore support...for me, it is the most important thing I need, because of doing deep stuff
2. Lack of visual feedback: it starts by nonexistent value readouts of existing meters, over nonexistent graphic elements in the MUX and ends (most important) in the lack of visual feedback of EQ curves and compressor meters...
Perhaps, it's just lazyness, but I feel restricted by don't having any visual feedback of what I am doing...Many people give the advice to work more with the ears because music is something you hear and not see, but I have find myself out in many situations, that I was cheated by my ears because of having worked too long or sometimes being in a bad mood...
3. I often get in trouble with the lack of certain synthesis features...please correct me, if I mention something wrong here:
- no ability to set max number of voices ( because of your effort for optimizing CPU usage, I cannot really understand this)
- no mono or legato modes
- Oscillators are always free running, no way of phase retriggering or osc syncing
- was already requested by another person: FM
- no way to make unison parameters reachable on the MUX player view
- no ability to integrate a mux into the poly synth...as far as I have understood the way it works, you have to use the Polysynth to be able to play something polyphonic, because the MUX is only monophonic...no problem here, but for integrating a more complex structure into the synth, there would be some kind of an container very important to keep everything visible...
Yesterday I was experimenting with a sound of 3 oscillators, which worked best with an additional chorus effect on one of them before getting into the further modules... I could of course copy the components of the chorus effect into the shematic, but then, it was impossible to keep the overview...
4. New Synth devices like Musynth and MuDrum are restricted to one output...especially the MuDrum needs min 4 outputs (better imho...you can do already a lot in the Mudrum, but by far not enough for me to integrate the drums into an arrangement of mine...atm, I am forced to work with multiple MuDrums or work with bounced parts to be able to do the occasional filtering and applying of different effects on the drums in a song...
5. No APDC...it is meanwhile very complicated and uncomfortable to work around this, because sometimes even VSTi's cause some latency
6. No ablity to timestretch audio... wouldn't be such an issue, if you could make energyXT2 work with MuLab ...as I mentioned before, it doesn't atm...
Same with rex files...it is no issue, if LiveLabs Liveslice would work in MuLab...
7. Internal comfortable filebrowser..we were talking about this already...(low priority)
8. No sampleformat conversation to the Multisampler (at least a simple sfz import would be very nice) and no ability to save a multisample on it's own...
To save the multisample as an instrument patch is a possibility, but not very comfortable...(low priority)
Edited: 9. One thing I forgot: The abilty to see "ghost notes" in the pianoroll view...working on harmonies and variations is so much easier with this feature...
These are the main issues I can remember atm
Many issues would be solved, if MuLab would support Multicores...in that case I could use more special Vsti's (like Zebra), which I can't atm, because they take too much CPU...
I really would like to know, how you do think about them and about "this" future of MuLab...
I am afraid, that these points I mentioned collide (or at least have a very low priority) mostly with the vision of Mulab you have, to concentrate more on the fun aspect of MuLab, which is of course your right...it is your product, but if I have to wait of MuLab 7 or 8 to see these issues fullfilled, it is better for me to move on or perhaps you can point me a way to get around these...

Thx for your patience and sorry to all the others, that I always wright half of a novel here...

[Nielzie]

@Trancit, so basically you would like to know Jo's priority list for the next year to make a decision wether to stay on the M4/M5 bandwagon, right?

I believe that multicore support will be there next year. And I believe MUX vst will also be released next year, which hopefully will gain Jo extra resources to take MuLab further. I also think (but not sure) that if Jo wants to release a MUX vst, that he would vastly improve some things before releasing it, such as oscillators for FM, PM, PW, etc.

But you might also want to think about upgrading your current system if you can't even run Zebra2 right on one core atm

[MuTools]

To really be able to make a decision wether further using MuLab or finding another alternative, I would need some very very serious input from you, of which I am not sure, if you really can and want to make those statements...

As I mentioned before, there are some things, I get in trouble with...:

1. Multicore support.
2. Lack of visual feedback.
3. Lack of certain synthesis features.
4. Musynth and MuDrum are restricted to one output.
5. No APDC.
6. No timestretch audio.
7. Internal comfortable filebrowser.
8. No sampleformat conversation to the Multisampler (at least sfz import)
9. "Ghost notes" in the pianoroll view.

I fully understand and agree with almost all of these feature requests.
The only reason why most of these feauters are not yet in MuLab is the limited amount of dev-time i have. So it's a matter of time.
I do want to add almost all these features, and i'm not telling you this to convince you, it's just the truth.
We all agree, i think, that the top priority is multicore support.
So i'll concentrate on that one first.

Some specific replies:

* Some time ago i already requested and received the REX SDK from Propellerheads, so that's also a matter of time to add it.

* I have already checked many options wrt timestretching and thought about how to integrate it in MuLab. Already did some initial research.

* Lack of synthesis features? Sure M4's modular sound engine is not yet complete (Is Reaktor perfect?), we can always think of more modules and more parameters, but allow me to highlight all the new modular synth goodies of M4!

* MuDrum multi out: Please give me a concrete example where you can't make a full mix within the MuDrum. I will be amazed. And even then: You even can make your own MuDrum-like MUX and there you have all modular freedom you can imagine!

I really would like to know, how you do think about them and about "this" future of MuLab...
I am afraid, that these points I mentioned collide (or at least have a very low priority) mostly with the vision of Mulab you have, to concentrate more on the fun aspect of MuLab, which is of course your right...it is your product, but if I have to wait of MuLab 7 or 8 to see these issues fullfilled, it is better for me to move on or perhaps you can point me a way to get around these...

Trancit, i did not say i want to concentrate on the fun aspect, did i?
I said, in all openess, that i also take that 'fun' aspect serious!
Maybe the words 'fun' and 'toy' are not the best words because they may lack respect for all the deepnes MuLab already has.
Maybe it's just about sweet easiness for power users and beginners.

Now if you doubt about my commitment towards power features, please (re)read the M4 What's New page at http://www.mutools.com/m4-info.html
I think that most of the items on that list are a great step forward towards power users like you. Especially the seriously evolved modular sound engine, which is a BIG step forward compared to M3.
Many things that were on the wishlist before now have been implemented. And like every app, M4 is not yet 'complete', we can always dream of more. More to come, multi-core on top.

[MuTools]

if Jo wants to release a MUX vst, that he would vastly improve some things before releasing it, such as oscillators for FM, PM, PW, etc.

Just going into detail: PM (Phase Modulation) is planned and will be added.
FM (Frequency Modulation) is not. There are technical reasons for it and that's why most synths do PM not FM.

PW (Pulse Width Modulation) is already in there.
And you can easily play with it in the MuSynth:
Take a saw waveform in Osc 1 and use the AIPS and there you got that wonderfull vintage PWM sound as on synths like the SH101 and others

[MuTools]

Here's a crash that occured shortly after loading a plug (AradazMaximizer 5) and switching to the MU.LAB GUI again. For all I know it could be related to the plug but I'm sending you the log anyway (email).

Quickly tried that one in M4 OSX and no crash here

Something weird just happened with MuPad: Element 3 turns itself off after
-muting it
-playing the patch with a keyboard or clicking notes on the piano roll in the editor
-unmuting it again.

Reloading the MuPad and reloading the preset both fix this.

Replicating this reliably isn't easy as it doesn't seem to happen all the time.

Edit: OK so when you mute Element 3 during playback, then play a few notes and stop playback, then unmute Element 3 again there's a good chance of it continuing to be muted. Then when you start playback again it starts again after a few notes.
So far I could only get the phenomenon with Fab Filter One. Cheeze Machine is behaving normally. I hope I'm not seeing things.

Are you sure it's only with a Fab Filter One?
How does Fab Filter One behave if you use it in the rack desk and mute/unmute it there? (i.e. not in the MuDrum/MuSynth)