Some automation bugs / requests for Diva.

[PAK]

Edit - Diva is responding correctly to Automation with this first issue, so the issue is basically with the host/what Novations controllers send. However I still think it'd be a really good idea to give these controls (Range and Detune) separate values and handle things internally (within Diva) since there must be quite a few controllers where this sort of thing may create issues? I'll leave the original words (small) intact, to give some context to the remarks

As is being discussed on another thread Diva (Win version at least) doesn't respect a negative setting on Detune when you move Range from '16 to 32' with automation via a hardware controller, nor does it respect a positive value on the Detune when you move from 4' to 2'.

Diva either needs to respect the Detune knob position/value when it sees a perfect +/- 24.00 message (which it does already with -12, 0 and +12) or
it needs to give Range and Detune two completely separate automation values and intelligently handle the differences internally. As it stands it doesn't seem possible to automate range/detune properly right now?

Secondly, some fairly small requests for automation.. One would be to have a value which can cycle the bottom tabs (Main/Modifications/etc) since that's about the only thing still requiring a mouse on Diva, other than the Trimmers VCO voice detune knobs which haven't been given automation values (though I, personally, don't miss those and it would add another 24 automation controls.. ). Also a specific "default" value to cycle certain menu values back to "default" might be nice? More to put the graphics back "as is" than for any real functional purpose

Thirdly, since Diva shared the same filter/ADSR automation settings for the different types etc, it got me wondering about if the same had been done for the 10 values on the FX knobs. IE the automation control for Wet on chorus1 would control wet when switched to Phaser1 etc. I can appreciate this would complicate things, in that the same automation lane would be controlling different things depending on what the main FX 1 was set to. It's just that, when arranging an Automap, I realized that Diva was using 56 different automation values for this when, with such a shared scheme, the amount of values could've been cut to 20

Finally, there's some very minor graphical type flaws when you assign automation to controls which might expect a stepped value. Eg switch to DCO and automate sawtooth shape from a standard knob/slider. The light will "float" between values

Whilst I'm at it another (non automation) bug which might be known - Set the VCO2 or VCO3 range knob to '2. Set the Detune knob to max. Double click the detune knob - It will make the Range knob disappear

[Echoes in the Attic]

Some good ideas, however I don't get the same behavior as you with the detune getting reset at 32' (value of -24) and 4' (value of 24). I know you're using automap, you might not have it set properly. I only see the detune affected when you go below 32' or above 2'. That is, you send a signal past the coarse tune rangel. Since it's all the same parameter, it sends the detune to max or min when you do that. It's still not ideal to be able to accidentally change the fine tune, but I don't think it's a big, it's a consequence of the these two knobs being in fact the same parameter. You'll notice the you can continuously turn the detune through all the octave changes. The Octave knob is really just a visual representation of where the tuning is.

I do wish there was a way to not allow the novation to send a signal to the tune when it's out of range of the specific knob you're turning but since that parameter exists with a wider range on another knob it can still send higher and lower values than -24 and 24.

edit corrected a typo above: "below 32' or above 2'"

[PAK]

Some good ideas, however I don't get the same behavior as you with the detune getting reset at 32' (value of -24) and 4' (value of 24). I know you're using automap, you might not have it set properly.
I only see the detune affected when you go past below 23' or above 4'.

The detune isn't touched at all if it remains at 12 o'clock (zero). So maybe you're seeing that, or maybe this is host specific or something odd that's indeed related to Automap? Though, to be honest, Diva is the only software I've had an issue about with this because of the relationship between the two controls.

Automap is operationally working fine though - and the cause is simple to diagnose because it leaves the automation data behind to replicate things.
Basically Diva is responding correctly to the Automation. The issue is that, when it gets to the top or bottom value, the exact Automation value is sent instead of maintaining the previous Detune value in addition to it. So the end value is always +/-24.00. Why it works correctly for all values except the last I don't know, but this does suggest Novation at fault, and I should test it in another host tomorrow.

However, even if that's the case, I still think it'd be a good idea for Diva to separate out these two values and handle things internally?

[Echoes in the Attic]

PAK, make the tiny words bigger again. I was wrong, there is a problem with how tune reacts to changes when it's not from the mouse. DIVA does intelligently know to leave the detune alone when you move in increments of 12 semi-tones, but it doesn't remember when you get to 2' or 32' if the detune was raised or lowered at the time.

However Urs designed the detune to remain when coarse changes are made, I really hope he can make it work at the 32' and 2' position as well.

[PAK]

PAK, make the tiny words bigger again. I was wrong, there is a problem with how tune reacts to changes when it's not from the mouse. DIVA does intelligently know to leave the detune alone when you move in increments of 12 semi-tones, but it doesn't remember when you get to 2' or 32' if the detune was raised or lowered at the time.

It does. But, so as not to discuss the same thing on two threads, see the other Novation Automap thread for a more in-depth explanation of why it's actually a Novation "problem". However, in a sense, I'm grateful for your mistake since it caused me to actually look at the automation data (what I should've done in the first place before I posted!). The symptom you see is simply Diva responding to the automation data being fed to it.

However this could (and probably should) still also be regarded as an U-He issue for several reasons..

1) No other software (I'm aware of) has this problem. The reason it's an issue at all is purely because of the nature of the controls and the fact that Diva (unwisely IMO) shares an automation value for them.

2) Because it's limited to an example of one (that I'm aware of), and because it may have other implications for how Automap functions, this may not be something Novation give priority to - assuming they're even able to "fix" it within the current Automap system.

3) Those shared controls are going to cause issues with other hardware controllers - almost guaranteed.

4) The software "fix" on Diva's side would appear more simple - Keep the current automation value for Detune and add a new one for Range, along with some internal code that knows to add/subtract the Range value from the Detune value.

The alternative to 4 is that controller manufacturers must code firmware/software so it sends data in a format compatible with what Diva expects for those controls. I would rather see U-he implement an extra control than the alternative - which may be more akin to waiting for hell to freeze over

As I also said in the other thread, I'd also be interested to know if Urs/others are actually able to get other hardware controllers to work correctly with Diva when controlling range and detune together?

[Echoes in the Attic]

I'd rather see an extra control as well. AS you've illustrated above, it'snot just a host-based control issue like in automap, but can also be an issue with drawn automation.

I would definitely vote for a separate control. Let's see what Urs thinks of the matter.

[Z]

A simple unlink feature, hidden in the trimmer panel would do. Tick unlink and detune is given a separate controller message to respond to. This way, they'll keep both worlds happy; Howard said in the Diva bugs thread that this was a feature and that it was a good thing.

[PAK]

I'd rather see an extra control as well. AS you've illustrated above, it'snot just a host-based control issue like in automap, but can also be an issue with drawn automation

Stick. Wrong. End Diva responds correctly to drawn automation! The issue is purely on the Automap side, and the picture was showing how Automap generates incorrect automation values, not that Diva responds incorrectly. Automap will correctly add/subtract from a value until it sees that the value is greater than or less than the "from and "to" values in a defined number range. When this happens the precise "from or "to" value is sent instead of it adding or subtracting from the existing value.

Translated into even less words: Diva is currently incompatible with how Automap works (Or vice versa if you prefer )

[PAK]

A simple unlink feature, hidden in the trimmer panel would do. Tick unlink and detune is given a separate controller message to respond to. This way, they'll keep both worlds happy; Howard said in the Diva bugs thread that this was a feature and that it was a good thing.

Howard should be made to use nothing but a Novation controller on Diva for a week for those words

But I'm glad you said that because I went searching for what was said and noticed Urs said this..

We have a great solution for MIDI in the making... separate control over semitones and cents... no worries, but it takes a few more weeks to get there.

So maybe there's hope?

Btw The Novation system is flexible enough that we can already have lots of control over things like semitones if we want, and still have full resolution control of detune too. Range just needs an additional automation value to dodge the issues outlined. If something fancier is in the works, which helps us and also increases what's possible with more basic controllers, then that's cool too. Hopefully it doesn't take a lot more Automation values to achieve it since Novation controllers only need a separate Range value right now, and the layout fits on a single page nicely atm.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Ah I see. You know what else would fix this? If Urs was to extend the tune parameter range from -36 to 36, but keep the gui in the range as it works now and leave the last 6 at each end equal to -30 or 30. This would let you enter -36 to 36 as your min and max and your From and To. Then it would at least behave like I used to think it did.

[PAK]

Hah. Now I'm confused. Sucks how simple things like these take so many words to explain sometimes.

If I'm reading what you mean correctly, extending the tune range wouldn't help, because the issue is the limits you must place on a control to create a Range value with 5 steps from the same automation control. Automap could still see more than its limit, because another control can increase this value, and it will reset. As an example set min/max to 0-6000, and from/to at 1800-4200 with 3 points. This creates a control for 16' 8' 4'. Now Automap will reset the Detune value when you switch to '16 or '4 No matter what values you give, the Detune knobs allow for a greater value - So there is no fix possible, as I see it, other than for Automap to modify how it works or Diva to add an additional automation value for Range and handle these differences internally.

[Urs]

Oooph... I fell a bit behind with these threads... sorry for that.

We will be working on Midi/Automation controllers pretty much all March. Until Musikmesse.

For whatever reason.

[Bronto Scorpio]

Oooph... I fell a bit behind with these threads... sorry for that.

We will be working on Midi/Automation controllers pretty much all March. Until Musikmesse.

For whatever reason.

The ACE (or was it Diva or...?) controller you once mentioned maybe?

Cheers
Dennis

[Echoes in the Attic]

Hah. Now I'm confused. Sucks how simple things like these take so many words to explain sometimes.

If I'm reading what you mean correctly, extending the tune range wouldn't help, because the issue is the limits you must place on a control to create a Range value with 5 steps from the same automation control.

Yes, but if the actual control went technically to -36 to 36, at least you'd be able to have increments of 12 while having a higher limit than -24/24 in the From and To. Right now you can't set the from/To to the whole parameter min/max because then the increments don't fall where they should. They would though if there was a bigger and smaller increment after 2' and before 32' technically. Sooo, turning the range to 32' while you had a negative detune wouldn't reset the detune because nothing would be sent outside of the range From/To.

You'd still get the problem if you tried to send a signal again once you were at the end, but at least you'd be able to use all 5 range values rather than just the 3 we get now.

Well sounds like Urs is aware of the issue posed by the shared parameter so hopefully he comes up with a clever workaround.

[PAK]

Oooph... I fell a bit behind with these threads... sorry for that.

We will be working on Midi/Automation controllers pretty much all March. Until Musikmesse.

For whatever reason.

Ok, cool Urs. Enjoy your break

Another "little thing" I noticed meantime.. The Pan Control has actually been inverted in v1.01. IE Left is right and right is left.

Had to invert the automation controls for now