Diva - map for Automap 4 and Remote SL MkII controllers

[Echoes in the Attic]

The correct setting for Detune is to set the Max value to 6000.

Just to be completely clear, isn't it 6001 "points" with a 'Min':-30 'Max':30? The 0.00 element is the extra one on the 6000. I can't remember exactly what happens with an off-by-one value in Automap 4, but 'off-by-one' is a well known source of bugs in computers/software.

It does end up being 6001, yes.

But you don't need to worry about that. You just need to know the min and max, enter those and then enter what you want the start and end point to be within that, as well as the increment.

So for a coarse tune knob, I set -30 as the min, 30 as the max. But the values I want to send actually go from -24 to 24 so I set those as the "From" and "To" values with an increment of 12. The points are set automatically for you. I don't think the math PAK was doing is necessary in t his case.

PAK, I'm not sure why you would set the max detune to 6000. It should be 30 just like the control indicates. Increment at 0.01 to adjust in cents. From and To to -30 and 30 respectively just like the min and max.

[Echoes in the Attic]

I just did some testing and it's not as bad as I thought. As long as you don't go over 24 or under -24 using your coarse knob, then it won't reset.

That's incorrect, as I've already explained above, because it doesn't take the -/+6 of the Detune into account. Example: If Range is set to 16' (-12.00) and the Detune is set to -6.00 (for a total of -18.00), when you move back down to 32', even though the Range button didn't send a value of more than -24.00, Diva still resets the -6 Detune back to the 12 o'clock position (24.00) instead of setting it to -30.

PAK is 100% right, there is a problem with how the tune is handled.

[PAK]

PAK, I'm not sure why you would set the max detune to 6000. It should be 30 just like the control indicates.

The control indicates 30.00. That's actually 3000 steps of resolution, not 30. So I set it to 6000 with the encoder in order to edit with .01 resolution accuracy on Detune. When I then set the Range setting I replicated the Detune (It's the exact same automation control remember) and put the range between 600 and 5400 with 5 steps.

By the way, are you sure you have your min and max set to -30 and 30? With From at -24 and To at 24?

It gives exactly the same results. (I tried just in case ) Which host and what controller model are you using (Mk1/2/other?) if you don't get this? Remember, if the Detune knob is set to a negative value or at zero when you change from 4' to 2' then it doesn't reset. It only resets a positive value. Likewise, if you switch from 16' to 32' it won't change if the value is zero or positive. Then it only resets the position if the Detune is in a negative position.

As I said over on the other thread, Diva actually responds correctly to the automation data, so the issue is not Diva. The automation value transmitted by the Novation maintains the detune and adds the range values to it until it reaches the last value. I have a feeling this may be related to Novations software, and sending absolute values at the start/end of a defined range of values. But I still think it'd be wise for Diva to change it since it's likely to create issues for other controllers too because of the shared arrangement between the controls.

FYI, I'm using 4.1, but it shouldn't matter. The point is, it's not a DIVA bug, it's a consequence of the knobs being one control.

Well, it may be a Novation bug - I get the same behavior on Automap 3 as well as 4 (2b2) but I haven't tried a host other than Cubase 6 yet. But I really do think the values would be better separated regardless of that

[Echoes in the Attic]

PAK, I'm not sure why you would set the max detune to 6000. It should be 30 just like the control indicates.

The control indicates 30.00. That's actually 3000 steps of resolution, not 30. So I set it to 6000 with the encoder in order to edit with .01 resolution accuracy on Detune. When I then set the Range setting I replicated the Detune (It's the exact same automation control remember) and put the range between 600 and 5400 with 5 steps.

That would end up being the same. Not sure why you multiply it. I just follow exactly what the control shows and what the real world increments of the control are that I want to send, which is -30 to 30 and put a 0.01 increment (still 6000 points but no need for math ). You know you can enter the increment and the #points will update automatically based on your min adn max right? This way the values it sends are the same as the control contains. I prefer it to be consistent.

Which host and what controller model are you using (Mk1/2/other?)

I'm using an mkI on OSX Lion in Ableton Live.

if you don't get this? Remember, if the Detune knob is set to a negative value or at zero when you change from 4' to 2' then it doesn't reset. It only resets a positive value. Likewise, if you switch from 16' to 32' it won't change if the value is zero or positive. Then it only resets the position if the Detune is in a negative position.

edit... not happening as I described.

[PAK]

You know you can enter the increment and the #points will update automatically based on your min adn max right? This way the values it sends are the same as the control contains. I prefer it to be consistent.

I do, and it can indeed be easier to do things that way. I'm just in the habit of doing it the "other" way because most software, unlike U-he's, doesn't show you the values on screen. So I'm used to looking at the supported resolution of the value in Automap and working from there Software like Cubase defaults to 10,000 values, so the actual automation numbers are always translated to something else again anyway

Which host and what controller model are you using (Mk1/2/other?)

I'm using an mkI on OSX Lion in Ableton Live.

Ok, I've tested on a Mk1 as well, so it could also be a difference in Mac/Win or host.

See my example above. I can have the range at 16' and the detune at -2 and it won't change the detune when I go to 32' from the novation knob. The value begins at -14 (-12 -2) and when I turn the range knob it moves it to - 26, leaving the detune in place.

Yep. Definitely not what's happening here.. I'll at least try to test another host or two by the weekend

[Echoes in the Attic]

Ok, well now I'm about to eat my words. I swear I tested it the other day and could get it to not reset in either direction when detune is above or below noon, but I can't do it anymore!

Now my experience is exactly as you are describing PAK so my apologies for giving false hope if I did. The example I gave is what I hought I remember happening, but now if range is at 16' and detune at -2, when I move the range to 32', the detune resets so the overall tune is -24. Bummer!

[PAK]

Ok, well now I'm about to eat my words. I swear I tested it the other day and could get it to not reset in either direction when detune is above or below noon, but I can't do it anymore!

Now my experience is exactly as you are describing PAK so my apologies for giving false hope if I did.

D'oh. (/me slaps Echoes on the head with a Novation controller)

In the meantime I
Sent a firmware reset to the hardware (Restore all defaults)
Tested multiple Steinberg stuff (SX3 to 32/64 bit Cubase 6.05 - same Issue)
Tested on Sonar 8 - Same issue.
Tested Automap 3.2, 3.7, and 4.2b2, both 32 bit XP & Win7 x64 - same issue.

Now you're saying it's the same on the Mac - in Ableton, no less, which seems to be Novation's host of choice lately. At least it's good to know it's not only Windows related. At this stage I think we can safely say this is Automap related, if not also the Firmware (version 4.2.0.2 Firmware used here).

Basically, when you have 2 controls operating on the same automation value, Novations software knows to add to the other value until it reaches the start or end of its defined range of values. When it does this, and sees the value is above/below where it expects, it sends an absolute value. So instead of saying "add +/-24 to the existing detune value", like it does for +12, 0, or -12, it sends a fixed +/- 24.00, but only when it sees the result will be above/below 24. That's why you can also send a +/- 24 and still have it behave correctly if the Detune value is kept on the right side of 24. Diva simply responds to the automation it sees.

This would (seem to be) fairly simple to fix on Diva's side - just keep the current value assigned to Detune and add a new "Range" automation value which Diva knows to add or subtract from the detune value internally within its code.

On Novations side there may also be reasons for them sending a fixed value, rather than an incremental one, at the start/end of the controls range - not sure how such changes would impact Automap functionality. Or maybe there's just not enough software which uses the same automation value, for two controls, for the problem to have ever came up until now?

The question is how likely Novation would be to fix a "problem" which has apparently existed for years and seems to impact precisely one piece of software - Diva - thanks to its decision to share the Range/Detune automation value. I'd also be interested to hear from Urs/others on this matter, since I wonder if he's actually tested this with a hardware controller which is capable of responding properly at all times to such an automation scenario? Like I said, I think it's likely that more than Novations controllers will be impacted by the decision to share automation for those values, so perhaps it would make more sense to add an extra automation value in Diva?..

[Echoes in the Attic]

I do agree that it would be better if the range and detune were two separate parameters within DIVA somehow.

And yeah you're right that it's the From and To settings being -24 and 24 that make it reset. For example if you set those to -30 and 30, and then set the increments to 6 semi tones rather than 12, it works, however you have to turn two notches on the encoder rather than one to move an octave. But when you do the detune goes back to where it was. Similarily using buttons, you can set the top button as increasing and the bottom as decreasing (step mode) and have it so that two button presses sends and octave, leaving the detune alone. It's too bad there wasn't some way to trick it to send 2 increments per button press. Then it wouldn't reset because it would see range as -30 to 30, yet move from -24 to 24.

[Z]

I'm using 4.2b2. I seem to recall the same thing happening in v3 though, but not with the same frequency that it happens in v4. I only just started using v4 since ealier v4 versions completely trashed the Automap install requiring me to manually copy/delete stuff etc. So feel free to point them at this thread in your bug report if you need some back up that someone else is experiencing the same issues with 4.2b2.

Damnit, I can't reproduce it now that I was about to file a bug report! I ran across it all the time while working on the map, and now, it's working as it should
What steps do you do in order to produce it?

OTOH I filed a bug report in that if you change the name of the map, the value is not saved. I changed it on several occasions to "Triple VCO", but every time I launch or restart Cubase the name is set to "Diva".

I also filed a request for copy/paste and be able to clone pages.

[PAK]

Damnit, I can't reproduce it now that I was about to file a bug report! I ran across it all the time while working on the map, and now, it's working as it should
What steps do you do in order to produce it?

Ok. Click a blank Button slot, assign a paramater and change its mode to "Step". Now type in the amount of steps. When you move to another control on the Automap interface and then go back to that button it'll sometimes "forget" its settings. Even though the Mode might still show "Step", the Range controls actually display the interface for "Toggle" and the steps you typed in are gone!

The basic problem seems to be that it's setting the Mode to something different than what the present setting is set to when you go back to that control. So EG you may have a button set to Normal and it will keep setting it to Momentary when you go to another control and then return to it.

Those are just some examples of its forgetfulness. It's also reluctant to show you the proper mode controls when you drag one control type to another (like a rotary to a slider, or a button to a knob etc). Sometimes you have to click off to another control and click back to the present one multiple times before it finally shows you the correct Range tab options.

As for Diva, the current way Automap stops the Tune2 control from being assigned properly in Diva kinda took up a night or two of testing to make sure it really was Automap to blame. I was planning to spend that time finishing off my current Diva Automap! My map's mostly finished (mainly the MS20 to go and a few final layout decisions) so hopefully I'll get it posted by tomorrow - if not soon after.

But, partly because of the present issues, I'm already thinking of doing a slightly slimmed-down "performance edition" since the current one is really focused on complete control of everything in Diva, whilst keeping a logical layout to do that. There wouldn't be that much difference in a "performance edition" but it'd offer some more room to work around current issues etc if I didn't have to assign all the shape/tune controls on the Moog map.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Hey pak, off topic, but do what happened to the latch learn mode in automap 4? Do we really have to hit learn after every assignment?

[xh3rv]

Hey pak, off topic, but do what happened to the latch learn mode in automap 4? Do we really have to hit learn after every assignment?

It's available in the GUI (on Mac at least), in a pull-down 'Learn' menu right underneath the page up / down icons

[PAK]

Hey pak, off topic, but do what happened to the latch learn mode in automap 4? Do we really have to hit learn after every assignment?

It's available in the GUI (on Mac at least), in a pull-down 'Learn' menu right underneath the page up / down icons

Yeah, I reckon they must've gotten too many support requests from people accidentally activating latch mode and wondering what the hell was going on. So it's menu only.

Anyway, didn't forget to post my map.. I'm just on the third version by now. The first one shared the DCO/Dual VCO map. The second one did a separate page for each, and the third added more pages so there's a little space to figure out a workaround for the current issues.

I tried a couple of things with the Octave/VCO/Range control, but definitely the best "fix" IMO is to assign the full (+/- 30) range to the control and then set the movements to jump in steps of +/-6 on a rotary, or use 2 buttons where one sends +6 and one -6, which is a bit more fiddly.

Should hopefully get it done this week anyway. Mostly finished - and I found the dual VCO map a bit more difficult, layout wise, than the Moog one