Hans Zimmer Loves Zebra

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Thanks for that Urs. I should have known he uses the LSO, and all that is very interesting!

And Michael, I'd say you and I agree. I don't think there's anything wrong with spending all your time trying to be a rock guitar hero with a keyboard, I just think the extreme examples have taken us away from viewing the synth for what it is, as opposed to "trying to live up to the REAL instrument for soloing which is a guitar." I won't mention any names, but these guys are called "the greatest keytar player" on YouTube while the great innovators like Hammer aren't even mentioned. Synth gets no respect and the evidence is that nobody can even name the true greats like Zawinul, Duke, etc. while a 5-year-old has heard of a multitude of guitarists. That needs to change, and it won't if Joe Public think the ultimate synth soloist can do no better than "almost as good as a real guitar" (which it isn't imo).



My thing is I'd rather continue to make new sounds and alter what I do every time I play, and demonstrate the unlimited expressive power of the synthesizer, rather than get in a rut of always trying to do perfect emulations of an existing instrument. It sorta fits with my philosophy that style is a self-imposed limitation on creativity. When people hear my music they often can't say what style it is, because I listen to and play all sorts of music and never try to make it sound like something else. I have been heavily influenced by a few musicians, and when I play it's quite remarkable how obvious that is, but that's not intentional for the most part. When I play a rock solo where a guitar might fit, my solos sound different than a guitar and I try to demonstrate that synths are the equal of a guitar when they're being themselves and not trying to be guitars, and can do things guitars can't.

btw notice how everyone is playing the Roland AXs with the ribbon controller - so they can hold the synth like a guitar? No matter that to play the ribbon on a conventional keyboard requires all the movements to be reversed, and no matter that the design leaves your left hand entirely unavailable for playing the keyboard...What matters is it looks phallic and guitar-like, enabling your guitar-hero persona to really shine! :hihi: I personally have never been satisfied with anything but a custom controller. But again, the guitar is the measure of everything everybody is doing in synth soloing in popular culture. I wish I were young again... :hihi:

Sorry about the digression folks... :oops:
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Evan wrote:
Urs wrote: Did the trick very well in Angels & Demons (as do all the sinthesized monk choirs there, when they sing "We Are Evil", it's from Zebra)

;) Urs
All the choirs from that soundtrack are synthesized? Or were you referring to a specific track/part?

I don't know the answer to that question, but back when the movie was out Howard post a few audio snippets of Zebra choirs and they were gorgeous...

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Gonga wrote:
WTF is that?
That just sucks. Big time.
Can that dude play keyboard? For sure, he can.
Is he good at using the sounds at his disposal? Yeah, he is (at least sometimes).
Would he make it as a guitar player (even in a blind test, so nobody knew he's using a keyboard) in any amateurish band? No way! Not even remotely. As soon as he starts to play "Angie" or starts any soloing, you'd instantly fire him. It sucks beyond belief, really.
Now, I am a guitar player, but this should even be obvious to almost any musician without a clue about guitars.

Maybe someone will do better - but so far I have only heard more or less convincing MIDI guitars as long as they were programmed (key switches and all that biz). I have never even once heard a truly convincing live performance.

So why not stick to what synths excel at and leave the "real" instruments alone? At least as long until there is a really working solution. So far there isn't, at least not in any live playing context.

- Sascha
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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Sascha Franck wrote:
Gonga wrote:
No way! Not even remotely. As soon as he starts to play "Angie" or starts any soloing, you'd instantly fire him. It sucks beyond belief, really.
Now, I am a guitar player, but this should even be obvious to almost any musician without a clue about guitars.
Hm, That thing before Angie was actually funny. But that Angie thingy reminded me of those young robo kiddies on youtube. No balls, poor sound and lame if any articulation.
But I guess that's true for anybody who is imitating any other instrument. It's like what non-drummers did to drumming while using samples and quantization.
I for one wouldn't dare to try to sound convincingly on the guitar like e.g. Joe Zawinul on a synth. :D

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Sascha Franck wrote: So why not stick to what synths excel at and leave the "real" instruments alone? At least as long until there is a really working solution. So far there isn't, at least not in any live playing context.

- Sascha
I agree with you in principle, but what exactly do "synths excel at"? That's what will probably make people here disagree. For example, I think synths excel at pretty much everything, although I usually don't like to see them used to emulate anything, rather used as instruments in their own right, exploring each one strenghts.
But what used to be electronic music, or purely synth music is almost extint nowadays.
Fernando (FMR)

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Sascha Franck wrote:
Gonga wrote:

Maybe someone will do better - but so far I have only heard more or less convincing MIDI guitars as long as they were programmed (key switches and all that biz). I have never even once heard a truly convincing live performance.

So why not stick to what synths excel at and leave the "real" instruments alone? At least as long until there is a really working solution. So far there isn't, at least not in any live playing context.

- Sascha

Personally, I don't judge whether it sounds like a 'real' guitar, but whether it is good music and musicianship. In that I have heard live keyboardists playing guitar solos that sounded fantastic. Simply couldn't be better cause the musicianship is awesome and who cares if there are some techniques that are not identical if they work musically?

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pdxindy wrote:
Sascha Franck wrote:
Gonga wrote:

Maybe someone will do better - but so far I have only heard more or less convincing MIDI guitars as long as they were programmed (key switches and all that biz). I have never even once heard a truly convincing live performance.

So why not stick to what synths excel at and leave the "real" instruments alone? At least as long until there is a really working solution. So far there isn't, at least not in any live playing context.

- Sascha

Personally, I don't judge whether it sounds like a 'real' guitar, but whether it is good music and musicianship. In that I have heard live keyboardists playing guitar solos that sounded fantastic. Simply couldn't be better cause the musicianship is awesome and who cares if there are some techniques that are not identical if they work musically?
Here's me playing some synth and sampler guitar way back in 1987. My first Blues number. The rhythm guitar is a Roland JX-3P with distortion and spring reverb provided by an old Traynor P.A. And the lead is one of the sounds that came on a floppy disk with the Ensoniq Mirage. Only real instrument is the harmonica, which I had just learned to play.

http://soundcloud.com/admiral-quality/your-door

(Bought my first Strat a few months later and never looked back. :hihi: )

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Evan wrote:
Urs wrote: Did the trick very well in Angels & Demons (as do all the sinthesized monk choirs there, when they sing "We Are Evil", it's from Zebra)

;) Urs
All the choirs from that soundtrack are synthesized? Or were you referring to a specific track/part?
No, not all choirs are synthesized as far as I know. But many are, and it's often layers of real and synthesized choir.

There is a particular part in the soundtrack, a 2 minute solo of violin (Joshua Bell) that is accompanied only by a Zebra choir and I think a few fx-type bits and bobs.

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Sascha Franck wrote:I have never even once heard a truly convincing live performance.
Not disagreeing but ... logically, wouldn't you actually not realize it was MIDItar if it was convincing? :hihi:

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Gonga wrote: And Michael, I'd say you and I agree. I don't think there's anything wrong with spending all your time trying to be a rock guitar hero with a keyboard, I just think the extreme examples have taken us away from viewing the synth for what it is, as opposed to "trying to live up to the REAL instrument for soloing which is a guitar."
Sorry about the digression folks... :oops:
It's not a digression, it's a progression, as a thread with many topics and changes is better than one topic.
(note: I'm blocked from youtube here, so can't view that)
Although a real guitar is best, or even a great sample collection.
If you have neither, than Zebra can do almost as good as a good sample collection. Maybe just for some added part, or used in a track temporarily, until the session gtar player does something over it...or many other reasons.
Maybe the example of your youtube video is cheesy, but not all emulations of real guitar are. I don't have my guitar here, it's in the states, so Zebra is my guitar for now, and they are comparable to Logics guitar samples imo.
Have a listen, they don't sound synthy or unrealistic to me.
Guitar Gods. 3 guitar sounds, and bass all Zebra (drums-iDrum)
http://www.box.net/s/j5l9jqf3gs5nd5vqrg5q
Either way, I'd rather waste my time (if that's what some assume it to be) on doing real instrument emulation, than loading up my banks with cheesy sfx, and drums, which there is an over abundance of already.
The latter being much easier to achieve imo.
Here's another useful thing that guitars or their samples can't do, that Zebra can.
Talk Synth 2 out of 1 (kick & snare plus 1 sound made into 2 all Zebra)
http://www.box.net/s/zt7asqmi8eip76yanle3
It's actually 1 preset (minus drums) The XY pads were used, and filter modules changed with some minor tweaking, but it's essentially the same preset.
The first being a talkbox emulation, and the next lead is a synthy thing.
2 for the cost of $0usd.
I imagine a more skilled player could do better, as I hate doing daw things, so it's all just loop the 8 and finger noodling on my 25key controller.
Doesn't sound cheesy to me, considering it's a non-sampled synth doing those.
I suggest downloading them, as at 320 they sound clearer than the box player.

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Michael, that guy is considered the "best" by many...

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed your tunes...your "demos" are as good as my best pieces :hihi:

Beautiful sounds indeed.
ALL YOUR DATA ARE BELONG TO US - Google

https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling
http://danling.com

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AdmiralQuality wrote:Here's me playing some synth and sampler guitar way back in 1987. My first Blues number. The rhythm guitar is a Roland JX-3P with distortion and spring reverb provided by an old Traynor P.A. And the lead is one of the sounds that came on a floppy disk with the Ensoniq Mirage. Only real instrument is the harmonica, which I had just learned to play.

http://soundcloud.com/admiral-quality/your-door

(Bought my first Strat a few months later and never looked back. :hihi: )
It works!

My personal favorite analog synth guitar "emulation" (I realize your tune was a sample) is "Heavy Love" from Jan Hammer's Black Sheep. Hey Girl is also good. The solos on this album were monophonic and duophonic (with "open string" technique) using a minimoog. 'Course Jet Stream is considered by many to be one of the great monophonic synth solos of all time...and the record that followed this one called Hammer was when he went polyphonic and I consider it his best commercial playing.

His best playing though, and the record I consider the greatest synth soloing album of all time, was a radio-only release called Melodies "Live." Yes, I have it. It cooks so hard it'll melt your shoes, but if you don't like loud rock 'n roll you won't get it.

And I have to say - none of this was emulation at all. And it doesn't sound like a guitar. It sounds more like magic.
Last edited by Gonga on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Gonga wrote:Michael, that guy is considered the "best" by many...
Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed your tunes...your "demos" are as good as my best pieces :hihi:
Beautiful sounds indeed.
Oh I see...the best.
Hey no, your musics great. Got all of the sc tunes on my player.
You actually go through the hassle of making parts, breaks and transitions.
I just noodle over loops til distraction. :hihi:
BTW...got to see Jeff Beck with Jan Hammer in 82' in nj.
It was one of the best. Lyle Mays with Metheny was also a good one.
Bands where the keyboardist and guitar player had a lot of interaction going on, was kinda rare really. I guess Yes had that as well.
I actually almost got Lyle Mays signature lead sound out of Diva now, and I'm gonna go for some classic Jan Hammer leads as well.
Only using Diva now. There will be no real instr emulations from me using it though. Go'in all classic synth stuff for now, and lov'in Diva a lot.
Take care Dan. :)

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Myself I barely had time to learn my way around ACE and now I have both Zebra and Diva to learn on.

btw I used Soliton Zebra on the last soundtrack for The Mad House :)

Michael check ur PMs :wink:
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mcnoone wrote:I just noodle over loops til distraction. :hihi:
I thought that's what I was doing! :D
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