What I think I've learned if you're doing a major chord progression, the capital numbers will be major chords, while the lowercase numbers will be minor.
Does this apply in reverse for a minor chord progression?
Capital numbers - Minor chord
Lowercase numbers - major
?
And in the case of the Dominant chord - if it's a lowercase number, would that 7make it a Major 7 chord? Or just a 7?
Please excuse the ignorance.
Thanks.
Progressions, numbers, major and minor, oh my.......help...
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- KVRAF
- 14170 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
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- KVRAF
- 2618 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
No, the case always means the same thing. Otherwise you'd never have "i".
If it meant different things at different times confusion would reign supreme when using chords that aren't in the initial key, and you'd always need to specify the key, which defeats the point of the exercise.
That is assuming I've understood your question correctly, I get the impression you're very confused
If it meant different things at different times confusion would reign supreme when using chords that aren't in the initial key, and you'd always need to specify the key, which defeats the point of the exercise.
That is assuming I've understood your question correctly, I get the impression you're very confused
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
People use upper case Roman Numerals to denote chords with a major third in, and lower case Roman Numerals to denote chords with a minor third in (regardless of key).osiris wrote:What I think I've learned if you're doing a major chord progression, the capital numbers will be major chords, while the lowercase numbers will be minor.
Does this apply in reverse for a minor chord progression?
Capital numbers - Minor chord
Lowercase numbers - major
?
And in the case of the Dominant chord - if it's a lowercase number, would that 7make it a Major 7 chord? Or just a 7?
Please excuse the ignorance.
Thanks.
The seventh is something different. It is possible for example to have a major third and a minor seventh (called a Dominant seventh, and figured 7), a major third and a major seventh (called a Major seventh, and figured maj7), a minor third and a minor seventh (called a Minor Seventh, and figured m7), and even a minor third and a major seventh (called a Minor-Major Seventh)
So, V7 for example is a dominant seventh (major third and minor seventh).
(In purely diatonic harmony, some people however, myself included, use uppercase numerals all the time, and 7 refers to a diatonic seventh; sometimes major, sometimes minor.)
See Scales, Modes and Chords for more details.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
telling the OP about uppercase = Major, lowercase = minor and then saying you use only the former? Really? that's only going to confuse a beginner.
I never heard of anybody doing that until this board, actually.
I see "II" in C major and I read it as "D major". the normal way is sufficient to provide the pertinent information, major or minor triad. This other way is aberrant.
the thing to know from the rest of that, is look at the construction [of triadic harmony] from the 'quelity' of the third first, Major, or minor.
you can have a Major/minor 7th chord, you can have a minor/Major 7th chord.
I never heard of anybody doing that until this board, actually.
I see "II" in C major and I read it as "D major". the normal way is sufficient to provide the pertinent information, major or minor triad. This other way is aberrant.
the thing to know from the rest of that, is look at the construction [of triadic harmony] from the 'quelity' of the third first, Major, or minor.
you can have a Major/minor 7th chord, you can have a minor/Major 7th chord.
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14170 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
Well, they are Roman numbers....
I think I have this figured out.
I'm doing C minor, and turns out there's no majors at all. There's flats.
I think I have this figured out.
I'm doing C minor, and turns out there's no majors at all. There's flats.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
no.
the number of Majors versus minors is the same for a minor key that shares the same key signature as its relative Major. C minor and Eb Major both have three flats in the signature. there are three Major triads and three minor triads and one diminished triad in the diatonic scale by default. 'same key signature' means 'same seven notes'. building triads results in the same seven triads.
The I chord in Eb is the III chord in C minor.
The i chord in C minor is the vi chord in Eb.
that reveals the relationship of relative major/relative minor. their key note or tonic is at the interval of a minor third or a major sixth apart (depending on which direction you're measuring in).
etc...
the number of Majors versus minors is the same for a minor key that shares the same key signature as its relative Major. C minor and Eb Major both have three flats in the signature. there are three Major triads and three minor triads and one diminished triad in the diatonic scale by default. 'same key signature' means 'same seven notes'. building triads results in the same seven triads.
The I chord in Eb is the III chord in C minor.
The i chord in C minor is the vi chord in Eb.
that reveals the relationship of relative major/relative minor. their key note or tonic is at the interval of a minor third or a major sixth apart (depending on which direction you're measuring in).
etc...
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
in music theory they are symbols for chords (so you have the relationship independent of 'what key note'), which have a meaning. Capital = Major, small letter = minor.osiris wrote:Well, they are Roman numbers....
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- KVRAF
- 2618 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
I'm not quite sure where it stems from but there seems to be a prevalent confusion between sharps/flats and major/minor.
The two are quite distinct and very different things.
A major chord is a chord where the first interval from the root is a so-called major third or 4 semitones.
A minor chord is a chord where the first interval from the root is a so-called minor third or 3 semitones.
Hence the names. Note that the second interval in a major chord is a minor third (3 semitones); and the second interval in a minor chord is a major third (4 semitones).
In other words, the semitones intervals from the root (0) that make up these chords can be written as:
Major: 0, 4, 7 (e.g. C E G)
Minor: 0, 3, 7 (e.g. C Eb G)
Just because the minor third in C is a flat doesn't mean that there is ANY relationship between minor chords and flats/sharps.
D major is D F# A
and D minor is D F A ...
Chords are all about intervals not note names. Don't confuse the two.
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The roman numerals are all about conveying relationships between chords. I or i is simply the key you are playing in (which can be any arbitrary key). For example, I IV V - the 3 chord trick - applies equally to:
C F G
D G A
E A B
and all the other keys.
The two are quite distinct and very different things.
A major chord is a chord where the first interval from the root is a so-called major third or 4 semitones.
A minor chord is a chord where the first interval from the root is a so-called minor third or 3 semitones.
Hence the names. Note that the second interval in a major chord is a minor third (3 semitones); and the second interval in a minor chord is a major third (4 semitones).
In other words, the semitones intervals from the root (0) that make up these chords can be written as:
Major: 0, 4, 7 (e.g. C E G)
Minor: 0, 3, 7 (e.g. C Eb G)
Just because the minor third in C is a flat doesn't mean that there is ANY relationship between minor chords and flats/sharps.
D major is D F# A
and D minor is D F A ...
Chords are all about intervals not note names. Don't confuse the two.
----
The roman numerals are all about conveying relationships between chords. I or i is simply the key you are playing in (which can be any arbitrary key). For example, I IV V - the 3 chord trick - applies equally to:
C F G
D G A
E A B
and all the other keys.
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
In most "contemporary" chord analysis there's only capital numbers used. A distinction between upper and lower case is basically sort of restricted to classical analysis.
So, instead of, say I - ii, you will most likely find I - IImin (or II- or IIm). There's good reasons for that because especially in handwritten scores and the likes, it's quite tough to make out what is upper or lower case.
- Sascha
So, instead of, say I - ii, you will most likely find I - IImin (or II- or IIm). There's good reasons for that because especially in handwritten scores and the likes, it's quite tough to make out what is upper or lower case.
- Sascha
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14170 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
It's very difficult for someone like me with little musical training.
You can look at a chord chart and think, Well your songs in a minor key, so all the notes have to be minor.
I did find a chord chart that list all the major and minor chord progressions AND the way the notes are supposed to be played.
The one I had just said: D. Okay, who knew the D was supposed to be a Ddim?
(Sorry to sound like an idiot. It's all beginning to come together slowly)
You can look at a chord chart and think, Well your songs in a minor key, so all the notes have to be minor.
I did find a chord chart that list all the major and minor chord progressions AND the way the notes are supposed to be played.
The one I had just said: D. Okay, who knew the D was supposed to be a Ddim?
(Sorry to sound like an idiot. It's all beginning to come together slowly)
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- KVRAF
- 1800 posts since 10 Feb, 2007
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- KVRAF
- 2618 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
There is no such thing as a minor note.osiris wrote:It's very difficult for someone like me with little musical training.
You can look at a chord chart and think, Well your songs in a minor key, so all the notes have to be minor.
There are various minor scales - which differ in the notes in the scale. You should easily be able to find an overview of the different minor scales using google or on wiki.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
basically? sort of? what? if you break down the basic difference in bebop vs older jazz reharmonization, the pertinent concept is ii-V-I and a quality of substition particularly for V [V7b5 = II7b5]; and later down the line you can look at where i is the new ii, or where ii becomes II.Sascha Franck wrote:In most "contemporary" chord analysis there's only capital numbers used. A distinction between upper and lower case is basically sort of restricted to classical analysis.
I wouldn't know where 'classical type of analysis' breaks for functional harmony unless you want to assign roman numbers to rock 'progressions' which are as likely to have been conceived outside the paradigm as any guess.
I didn't know handwritten sheet music which tells the person the chords with roman numbers was so prevalent.