Fatboy Slim thoughts about software synths

[Tricky-Loops]

Fatboy Slim Phatty, eh?

We are currently living in an in-between age. There will surely come a time when these discussions will seem REALLY antiquated. "Just imagine, scholars, how the people of the early 21st century fretted over the differences between analogue and digital."

The really interesting thing - to me - about all of this is: a lot of musicians seem to reject sonic perfection. By that I mean: the kind of perfection achieved by digital processing. Straight lines and corners are not "natural". The natural world is a world of curves, whereas we try to impose straight lines and corners onto it. There are, however, efforts in every field of science that try to counter this movement: fuzzy logic, systemic theory, the emulation of non-linearities in music software. To some, it might seem like today's developers are trying to resurrect old tech in a digital form, but that is misleading. What they're doing is actually a synthesis of the natural (randomness, curves) and the artificial (lines and corners). The gap is rapidly closing; I really feel we're moving ahead, and that some of the current software synths are examples of the endeavour to reconcile the natural and the artificial. Which, to put it plainly, is the huge conundrum that entraps all of us in this modern age. It is a reflection of the human condition. And I find it heartening to experience these advances first-hand. I hear Neil Young rant about digitalism, and I tend to agree with most of his points, while another part of me thinks that his point of view is reactionary and wilfully recalcitrant. Clinging to the past just seems wrong to me.

Which is a hugely round-about way of saying: don't fret these little differences, just enjoy the ride. When I look back ten to fifteen years and see how far we've come in music software, I really can't wait to see what the next ten years will bring.

Good points.

Why are people loving analog synths so much? Because they're imperfect. Because they have pleasuring phase issues. Because they constantly change the sound slightly.

First they have tried to make perfect software synthesizers, without any artifacts. Now with all these hardware emulations they're bringing the imperfection back into place.

If you make a garden like a crossword puzzle, it may be perfect quadratical, but it looks boring. If you bring some other elements into it (circles, arcs etc.), the garden will become much nicer.

[trimph1]

I actually asked about making a softsynth such that it would display phase issues, or osc drift or summat but was told that some people would see that as an error in the programming....

[herodotus]

I respect those (like me!) who choose to use software for what ever reasons they have, but I do not respect those who say software VA sound just as good as analog hardware and that people can't tell the difference, because it is not true. This whole thread started to become "cut down the rich old dude who's behind the times" and as a rich old dude I felt we needed a voice.

As a middle class old guy who has never understood why anyone would prefer the sound of electronic drums to acoustic drums, I have to say that the eternal argument over the minutiae of synthesizer sound quality has always seemed kind of silly. An argument over such subtleties seems kind of ridiculous when a whole culture refers to the sound of a blast of white noise as a 'snare'.

I don't doubt that you prefer the sound of analog synthesizers. I will, even, for the sake of argument, assume that in a blind test you could tell the analog from the digital clip 100% of the time (even though I have never seen anyone do better than 70% in real life). What I think is questionable, though, is the idea that there is some sort of objective scale of 'goodness' that one can apply to synthesizer sound quality.

I know that a strong preference for something can feel like an apprehension of its objective superiority. But it isn't. For instance, I feel that the sound of my 40+ year old Slingerland snare drum is plainly superior to that of any snare made today, no matter what its price. I could even tell you what is 'wrong' with the sound of modern snare drums. But I don't kid myself into thinking that all of the people who prefer their 50 pound 1/2 inch thick brass shell snare drums are wrong. They like that sound, for some reason, apparently.

But synthesizers have been 'fake' from the beginning. The first synths all advertised themselves as mimicking the sounds of acoustic instruments, and let's face it, they failed. My CS-15's manual contains instructions on how to achieve a 'trumpet' sound. It wouldn't fool a 5 year old.

Does that mean that the CS-15 'isn't as good' as a trumpet? Does that even mean anything?

[cryophonik]

Very nicely put, herodotus.

[zerocrossing]

Or simply the world "awful" - how could the Google translator know if it's meant positive or negative?

Vielen Dank für die Verbreitung der Stereotypen, dass die Deutschen sind ohne Sinn für Humor.

[AdmiralQuality]

I actually asked about making a softsynth such that it would display phase issues, or osc drift or summat but was told that some people would see that as an error in the programming....

Oscillator drift...



And I don't know what you guys mean by "phase issues".

As well, the term "artifacts" means residual evidence of a process. As analog synths are SUPPOSED to sound like analog synths, they inherently don't have any artifacts. This word is usually used to indicate unintentional and detectable differences in sound between a digital process and whatever real-world thing its trying to emulate or reproduce. I suppose you could also say analog recording technologies have artifacts; noise, frequency response, wow and flutter, etc. All perverting the original signal they are attempting to reproduce. But analog synths can't really be considered to have artifacts because they are what they are.

[mcnoone]

So we've established that you do agree with me. Good analog hardware synths sound better, but you think the audience won't appreciate the difference.

I don't know, cuz I only had some limited use long ago with analog synths, and many years with just a rolandD20.
So if you could just make some short clips of some of those sounds you like on your hardware synths, without fx or eq-processing.
Then let us see if we can re-create them with soft synths.
I wanna try, but need clear audio examples of exactly what type of sound you think is better on hardware than software.
Just some 15 second clips of each, as wav would do.
Of course using eq or other processing wouldn't be helpful.
Can you do it?
If you do, I'll give you a prize.

[AdmiralQuality]

Also...



I've just done some searching but I can't seem to find ANY video of Fatboy Slim playing synthesizers, analog or otherwise. In fact, he seems to be able to dance behind his console, waving his arms about, and yet the music continues anyway. Can anybody point me at a video, anywhere, of him playing a musical instrument?

If not, why are we worried about what a D.J. thinks of a choice of musical instruments? I'd also say his characterization of what's wrong with digital synths is off. To me, the problem was a "glassy", "syrupy", non-present sound that refuses to cut through the mix. Like my old Roland XP-80. Sounded great, until you tried to play it in a band and it became either invisible, or way too loud. There was no happy medium.

All the better soft-synth makers have beaten that now. Norman may just be remembering impressions of life before insobriety.

[Tricky-Loops]

Also...



I've just done some searching but I can't seem to find ANY video of Fatboy Slim playing synthesizers, analog or otherwise. In fact, he seems to be able to dance behind his console, waving his arms about, and yet the music continues anyway. Can anybody point me at a video, anywhere, of him playing a musical instrument?

If not, why are we worried about what a D.J. thinks of a choice of musical instruments? I'd also say his characterization of what's wrong with digital synths is off. To me, the problem was a "glassy", "syrupy", non-present sound that refuses to cut through the mix. Like my old Roland XP-80. Sounded great, until you tried to play it in a band and it became either invisible, or way too loud. There was no happy medium.

All the better soft-synth makers have beaten that now. Norman may just be remembering impressions of life before insobriety.

I'm pretty sure that at least he can play drums and bass guitar...

[osiris]

FS played turntables, not synths.

[AdmiralQuality]

I'm pretty sure that at least he can play drums and bass guitar...

I don't know much about him. All I really know is Weapon of Choice had a cool video. But yes, the Wikipedia page says he started out playing drums. But sorry, when I see someone, alone, dancing on stage with arms in the air yet music is still coming out, I think D.J.


Q: What do you call people who hang out with musicians?

A: Drummers.

(Admiral runs and hides!!!)

[cryophonik]

FS played turntables,

Analog or digital?

[osiris]

Probably both....

I need to praise you like I should....

I'd care more if they'd ask Moby.

[Tricky-Loops]

I'm pretty sure that at least he can play drums and bass guitar...

I don't know much about him. All I really know is Weapon of Choice had a cool video. But yes, the Wikipedia page says he started out playing drums. But sorry, when I see someone, alone, dancing on stage with arms in the air yet music is still coming out, I think D.J.


Q: What do you call people who hang out with musicians?

A: Drummers.

(Admiral runs and hides!!!)

He has been getting into DJing pretty early. But I think he's probably grown up with analog gear and now he goes back to it as he is getting older.

Maybe his hearing isn't that good anymore, so all softsynths sound a bit metallic to him...

[AdmiralQuality]

He has been getting into DJing pretty early. But I think he's probably grown up with analog gear and now he goes back to it as he is getting older.

Maybe his hearing isn't that good anymore, so all softsynths sound a bit metallic to him...

Again, I'd be able to take that opinion more seriously if I had any evidence that he ever played synths of any variety.

Also again, I feel he's wrong in the "metallic" characterization of how (some) digital synths are lacking. (Or when he thinks "digital synth", is he really thinking 90s ROMplers? )

Just one picture or video of him playing a keyboard. Anybody? I found a pic of him beside a keyboard. But for all we know he just uses it to trigger samples of other peoples' songs.



On stage, he's invariably behind a table. I don't even see a keyboard stand, much less a keyboard. (I'd also accept MIDI guitar controller, wind controller, Eigenharp, anything that's a musical instrument.)

EDIT: Is that a roll of T.P. I see beside the keyboard?