Reason Rack extension

[whyterabbyt]

Yes ofcourse "use 3D" means use of 3 dimensional models, i.e. the mathematical representations of objects using three-dimensional primitives.

Huh? 3D primitives are made from mathematical representations, not the other way around.

As requirement all Rack Extension UI's have to be modelled in 3D.

If they're not rendering (some or all of) the objects on-the-fly, why would that be?

Have a read at this post over at Analog Inustries.
"If a plug-in dev doesn't have someone on staff that has a fairly extensive knowledge of 3D modeling software and how assets from that software are utilized, that plug-in dev is gonna be pretty much out of luck when it comes to Rack Extensions."

Id already read it. And I have at least passing familiarity with how 3D assets get utilised. What I dont see any explanation of is why that's the case here. I can only think of two possible reasons:

1) On-the-fly rendering of some kind (even if its just shadow masks or something)
2) Developers dont get to carry out their own build-and-compile process for REs; all of it, including the image rendering, is done by PH.

(2) seems unlikely and there's nothing I can see which is obvious evidence of (1). So again, I wonder why would it be?

[v1o]

It's not rendering the 3D modelled UI on the fly. It would be too computationaly intense for those of use using Intel integrated GPUs. But instead uses the 3D model to build high resolution images for the UI.

That's why I said the racks are resolution independent (at least technically). In the future, with more GPU power and even more powerful parallel processors, I don't see any Reason why the rack shouldn't be in real time 3D.

[whyterabbyt]

It's not rendering the 3D modelled UI on the fly. It would be too computationaly intense for those of use using Intel integrated GPUs. But instead uses the 3D model to build high resolution images for the UI.

But that can also be done with 2D vector software. So that cant be the reason 3D software is needed.

[eXode]

Being 3D models doesn't have anything to do with vectorized UI. What does it help that the models are 3D when they are still converted to non-scalable 2D in the rack? Look at cable guys Curve for instance. Reason just doesn't support that type of UI (yet, hopefully).

Vectors graphics are 3D objects, they are closely related to polygons.

Indeed, 3D models means we can render a 2D bitmap in pretty much any resolution - an advantage of vector graphic too so they share that. It's part of "future proofing" the format but what that actually means for the future of visuals I don't quite know to be honest!

Thank you for confirming this for everybody!!

But that's not what we spoke about, we spoke about that Reason and RE does not currently support a vectorized GUI _inside_ Reason. That Rack Extensions currently doesn't support dynamic UI such as those found in Fabfilter products, Camel Audio Alchemy or Cable Guys Curve (to name but three).

Look at the screenshot of the Curve 2 UI and you'll understand what we meant. That UI is not possible in Reason (w or w/o Rack Extensions) today afaik.

[liquidsound]

For many the final point will be to realize that you will one day face the fact that if you want to go another direction, and who doesn't for God sake, you will have to say goodbye to you investment. Just say goodbye to all the gear you purchased in a very cleverly and intentionally created closed ecosystem.

Like I said before, this is similar to Monsanto. Your seed are their seed and do not reproduce.
Your land (music system) is committed to them and if you want to move on you must walk away and abandon you investment.

The more you invest in it the more the momentum of freedom slows down. It's like keeping buying upgrades even for something you know you will no more use but you have a doubt...... You invested so far.... Just few extra dollars and see.... Maybe something better comes along.....

[whyterabbyt]

Vector graphics are graphics defined by a mathematical expression.

And so are polygons and nurbs.

But that doesnt mean 'vector graphics' are '3D objects' as you claimed. Only that they're all defined in the same way.

Just like cats and dogs being mammals doesnt prove mammals are cats.

[headquest]

For many the final point will be to realize that you will one day face the fact that if you want to go another direction, and who doesn't for God sake, you will have to say goodbye to you investment. Just say goodbye to all the gear you purchased in a very cleverly and intentionally created closed ecosystem.

Like I said before, this is similar to Monsanto. Your seed are their seed and do not reproduce.
Your land (music system) is committed to them and if you want to move on you must walk away and abandon you investment.

The more you invest in it the more the momentum of freedom slows down. It's like keeping buying upgrades even for something you know you will no more use but you have a doubt...... You invested so far.... Just few extra dollars and see.... Maybe something better comes along.....

Brilliant post

Do you know how many commercial CD albums are (still) released each month? Clue: even in a slow month it is well into 4 figures. That means that in the time it has taken you to read this thread, dozens of albums have been finished by recording artists across all the musical genres, classical, jazz, dance, rock, etc...

How many were done all or even part in Reason? A very very small proportion (small enough to barely register). So while you might love Reason, a time will come when you may want or need to move onto using a different platform. Obviously that only happens if you are at all successful, but even so... don't we all dream of that to some extent (even an oldie like me who earns a decent living in education!)...

Being locked into one platform is never a good thing. It's totally short sighted. It's a creativity killer that stops you from developing and progressing as a musician. And even the slightest idea that the platform you choose will one day become a universal standard is frankly delusional, because even in the medium term the industry simply doesn't work that way.

[mellotronaut]

For many the final point will be to realize that you will one day face the fact that if you want to go another direction, and who doesn't for God sake, you will have to say goodbye to you investment. Just say goodbye to all the gear you purchased in a very cleverly and intentionally created closed ecosystem.

Like I said before, this is similar to Monsanto. Your seed are their seed and do not reproduce.
Your land (music system) is committed to them and if you want to move on you must walk away and abandon you investment.

The more you invest in it the more the momentum of freedom slows down. It's like keeping buying upgrades even for something you know you will no more use but you have a doubt...... You invested so far.... Just few extra dollars and see.... Maybe something better comes along.....

i only downloaded 2 trial REs yesterday and i admit, i had a lot of fun in combination with already integrated devices, but i haven't bought anything yet. i spent a lot of money in Cakewalk. when i changed platform, it was almost for nothing.
Reason isn't my main host for a long time now and so i thought if it wasn't better to wait for NI's usual summer promo. i need Kontakt 5 and i'd like to have Razor.
Difference between Props and Cakewalk on the one hand and Monsanto on the other: the former just hurt your wallet, the latter hurts you and probably kills you (at least indirectly).

[kmonkey]

It's not rendering the 3D modelled UI on the fly. It would be too computationaly intense for those of use using Intel integrated GPUs. But instead uses the 3D model to build high resolution images for the UI.

That's why I said the racks are resolution independent (at least technically). In the future, with more GPU power and even more powerful parallel processors, I don't see any Reason why the rack shouldn't be in real time 3D.

But they aren't resolution independent. You think that because you are not doing 3D (unlike me and unlike guy from Propellerhead which obviously posted something which isn't his job).

For one thing i am sure. With today middle class Nvidia gpu and 3DS MAx, with Vray i could render these Reason interfaces in 2 seconds! - Do you understand that?

I can make it with real time screen rendering open all the time. If i for instance change lighting it will recalculate everything within 1 second.

I don't get where did you get impression that these devices are 3D heavy? These are so simple made of few same elements copied across device (fader or knob) with textures. With very basic lighting. I could model (just modeling) any RE interface in about 2-5 hours.

Let me give you better example from what i do for living. With today first class Nvidia GPU i can render in about 20 seconds complete photorealsitic architectural scene which include Building, pool, water etc.etc. sundaly lighting etc.etc. With photorealistic HDRI background and lighting.

Hmm..see this (my english is terrible i know) start from 4:00 - note that his setup is old i guess. This same scene take seconds on my system. Note that this scene has about 10 000 more elements and polygons then all RE devices will ever have - so you'll understand what i mean.

Now to return why they aren't independent in resolution - simply because texture isn't independent. I assume you are under impression that they are independent because you think they are vectors (which are independent in resolution) but they are not vectors.

Didn't guy from Prophead just said that they have 3d model but in very high resolution. Vector isn't a polygon By having their devices in hires 3D That means that one day they can make it super big (probably absurd) but they can not make it bigger then 1:1 that of a limit of texture since it isn't a vector. Texture isn't vector it has limits in resolution.

[Anosou]

Now to return why they aren't independent in resolution - simply because texture isn't independent. I assume you are under impression that they are independent because you think they are vectors (which are independent in resolution) but they are not vectors.

Didn't guy from Prophead just said that they have 3d model but in very high resolution. Vector isn't a polygon By having their devices in hires 3D That means that one day they can make it super big (probably absurd) but they can not make it bigger then 1:1 that of a limit of texture since it isn't a vector. Texture isn't vector it has limits in resolution.

Now you are completely right this is not my area of expertise. I've gotten it explained to me and roughly paraphrased what I heard. You are also right about the textures! However, our textures are very very high resolution and are deemed by us to be future proof for quite a while.

Hope that answers your concerns!

Regarding animated vectors and similar on devices, like the described FabFilter, I don't know much about that except that there are currently some limitations on what can be done but also that this is the first version of a brand new format. Things happen.

[kmonkey]

Something as this:



and this:




can't be made from vector

[Robert Randolph]

Something as this:

[removed to not rape the thread]

and this:

[removed to not rape the thread]


can't be made from vector

It absolutely could. I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

[kmonkey]

Now you are completely right this is not my area of expertise. I've gotten it explained to me and roughly paraphrased what I heard. You are also right about the textures! However, our textures are very very high resolution and are deemed by us to be future proof for quite a while.

Hope that answers your concerns!

Regarding animated vectors and similar on devices, like the described FabFilter, I don't know much about that except that there are currently some limitations on what can be done but also that this is the first version of a brand new format. Things happen.

No i am not concerned and actually i was convincing other guy in another thread that your SDK is futureproof and that there shouldn't be fear of something as "breaking compatibility" at least to my logic. I was just trying to iron difference in vector vs polygon

Good luck with your stuff matte it seems like you guys opened another panodra box with RE

[kmonkey]

Something as this:

[removed to not rape the thread]

and this:

[removed to not rape the thread]


can't be made from vector

It absolutely could. I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

Here we go...i know it could but it could take absurd amount of time when compared to doing it in 3d..

btw this is from image website: Here are some 3D visualizations of Propellerheads' Reason Software Studio System, that I created with 3Ds max.

[kmonkey]

Hmm..i think that something as "Pandora RE" is really nice for a RE device..