Why the two and four? What about 3/4?

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jancivil wrote:
ntom wrote:Something that I am certain goes to the very very basics of music theory...but why does the snare most commonly land on the 2 and 4 beat?
it's a convention, of a style.
ntom wrote: Is there some sort of theory behind this that can be applied to other time signatures?
Where does the snare land commonly on 3/4? 5/4? 6/8?
no, there isn't really any simple principle in the convention of rock drumming in 4 to extrapolate from so as to apply to a different factored time.

3/4, waltz, typically snare on 2, 3.
5 is 3+2 or 2+3. or, you could be more interested in phrasing and say 2+2+1.

But, these are at bottom ways of metering the time. when do you do something [where's the snare]? when you get the idea to do something. the conventions for 4/4 per eg., 5/4? well, 4/4 is more conventional, you know. there is less conformity as you get away from it I reckon.

6/8 might be two dotted quarters, it might be a way of expressing 3/4 to give you a finer grid, it might be 4+2.
it might be a mixture of all the above. 'hemiola' 6/8 = 3/4 is interesting, emphasise it as the two dotted quarters, alternately as three quarters. I wanna be in Amer, i, ca.

9/8 might work like 3/4 + 3/8, it might be 2+3+2, could be 3+2+2...


"It's more common in 4/4 time to write the kick on the 1 and the snare on the 3." I doubt it. That's a half time feel. I like it a lot myself but it is probably quite a bit less common. Rock backbeat in 4/4 is 2 and 4 typically.
Thanks, you put in words what I would have tried to explain. Ive been reading a little into the clave of afro cuban drums a lately where it is 3/2 until they eventually reach a point where it is then reversed back to 2/3, and that this happens as a switch over during the playing and so is a constant rhythm.
(Ive put this in case I need some correction so please feel free to let rip, that is with words and not natural gasses) :wink:

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jancivil wrote:
ntom wrote:I found the snare sounded best on the upbeat!
so there's your reason.
With answers like these, you might as well be telling me, "Apollo created music purposefully to sound good like this"
I get that it sounds good.
I want to know WHY does it sound good. If there was theory behind it, then it could be applied to hybrid time signatures for a better sounding "accent" on a beat.

although, I think we have pretty much come to the conclusion there isn't really any sort of theory that explains why.

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Gamma-UT wrote: Got any examples of that? I can't remember seeing a transcription of a rock, pop or R&B song that had the music scored the way you've described and I can't think why it would be the case unless you're scoring for an oompah band.
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ntom wrote: although, I think we have pretty much come to the conclusion there isn't really any sort of theory that explains why.
Theory won't answer that for you. What will is familiarity. If you are raised anywhere near popular music you will hear things that are familiar and less familiar. You may gravitate to the less familiar when it happens as it's "Different" (I don't listen to opera or middle eastern music or traditional asian music) Or you may gravitate to the familiar.

In the cycle of popular music something comes along that is perceived as "new" Everyone jumps on the bandwagon emulates aspects of the "new sound" till it gets "old" at which time the process begins again. Something "new" comes along that is "familiar enough" and yet also "unique enough" If something truly was unique enough yet didn't satisfy our "familiarity" quotient" it gets thrown out the window.
Last edited by tapper mike on Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Total guess, but it could come from black influences in North America who carried traditions from West Africa. Early gospel, blues and pre-1900s "cakewalk" music seemed like it started to move the heavier emphasis on 2 and 4.

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Music is the way it is because of how (human) nature is. Humans have two hands and two feet, can hear within a certain frequency range with emphasis on the frequencies of human speech, "like" patterns and have a tendency to look for them, like to communicate etc etc. These traits come through in music, in all variations, all over the world, in all times. So you're likely to find a lot of variations of Boom-Tsjak, Tick-Tock, Bim-Bam, Call-Response etc.

It reminds me a little bit of this:




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herodotus wrote:
Gamma-UT wrote: Got any examples of that? I can't remember seeing a transcription of a rock, pop or R&B song that had the music scored the way you've described and I can't think why it would be the case unless you're scoring for an oompah band.
One

Two

Three
They're transcribed the way I'd expect: snare backbeat on 2 and 4 in common time (aside from the fills etc), unless I'm missing something. Rock'n'roll transcribed the way Tight Snare described it would presumably need a quarter-note bpm of 340.

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Egad.

No Most rock rarely breaks the 200bpm mark. Faster jazz usually hits the 260 bpm mark.

Rock around the Clock by Bill Haley comes in at 185. Most 60's 70's and 80's rock tunes clock in at around 110~160
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tapper mike wrote:Egad.

No Most rock rarely breaks the 200bpm mark. Faster jazz usually hits the 260 bpm mark.

Rock around the Clock by Bill Haley comes in at 185. Most 60's 70's and 80's rock tunes clock in at around 110~160
Just to clarify before everyone gets theirs in a bunch, it was a reduction ad absurdum. The first example Herodotus posted was of Led Zep's Rock'n'roll in conventional 4/4, which has an average tempo of about 170bpm.

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Gamma-UT wrote: They're transcribed the way I'd expect: snare backbeat on 2 and 4 in common time (aside from the fills etc), unless I'm missing something. Rock'n'roll transcribed the way Tight Snare described it would presumably need a quarter-note bpm of 340.
Occasionally a song switches to the half-time feel for certain parts. The only one I can think of offhand is Enter Sandman at "sleep with one eye open".

Otherwise it would have to be something with a very slow feel. I think something like a Twista song, where he raps very fast but the beat feels about 80 BPM, could be perceived as snare on 3. When I was a marching band drummer some slow ballads were written that way, possibly to facilitate marching and conducting.

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Gamma-UT wrote:
herodotus wrote:
Gamma-UT wrote: Got any examples of that? I can't remember seeing a transcription of a rock, pop or R&B song that had the music scored the way you've described and I can't think why it would be the case unless you're scoring for an oompah band.
One

Two

Three
They're transcribed the way I'd expect: snare backbeat on 2 and 4 in common time (aside from the fills etc), unless I'm missing something. Rock'n'roll transcribed the way Tight Snare described it would presumably need a quarter-note bpm of 340.
Oops.

I appear to have confused what the two of you were saying. I meant to respond to Tight Snare.

I blame the beer.

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So...Phi is what makes 2 and 4 sound good?

I was thinking, - going back the "oscillation" idea - this only works for straight beat - kick on 1 - 4 (or at least 1 and 3) and snare on 2 and 4. This will create the oscillation.
But what about on different rhythms? Rock rhythms? A common rhythm is 2 kicks (1 and) then a snare, and then on 3 kick, 4 snare.
Albeit it is still the up-down oscillation, but with double emphasis on the low frequency amplitude.

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A common rock pattern consists of three kicks 1, 3 and the "and of 3"
http://tappermike.com/kvr/NONAME.MID

However there are many many variations to this.
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tapper mike wrote:A common rock pattern consists of three kicks 1, 3 and the "and of 3"
http://tappermike.com/kvr/NONAME.MID

However there are many many variations to this.
Yeah that's what I was refering to...I guess I had the kick backwards though.

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