KVR Audio

fx1mark · Post by **fx1mark** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:10 am

what you get for the upgrade price imo is very fair. I have been having a blast with struminator. not only is it fun, but I am also playing many guitar licks that I would not have played on a keyboard alone. I waited a long time for 3.0, and I for one, am completely satisfied.

macmuse · Post by **macmuse** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:04 pm

Compyfox, thanks for your in depth information. I'm not a guitarist per se, but I do have an electric guitar. I just upgraded to RG/RS 3. Previously I had been programming the parts on the keyboard and using the strumming patterns.

I was reading about the GH and the strum bar isn't strummed like you would strum (like on a real guitar) but instead you press this bar down?? How is that? Does this make a more realistic strum than just playing chords on the keyboard with key switches or using patterns? Is it actually easier than the keyboard route? How do you tell it what chords you are playing (like you would if you played a chord on a keyboard)?

And lastly, do you think the results using the GH controller are more authentic than via the keyboard? How about using the patterns? And can you still use strumming patterns with this controller, or wouldn't you need to? If it actually had strings, I might think it was for guitarists who may not be familiar with keyboards, but since it doesn't, that's why I wondered if the result is different.

fx1mark · Post by **fx1mark** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:33 pm

macmuse, you can download the manuals from musiclabs website. you can assign virtually any chord to any button, or combination of buttons with a maximum of 31 chords. 12 chords realisticly in my opinion, because they start to get to be a stretch to reach. 12 chords will cover most songs, or verse, chorus.
you strum the controller, down for downstrum, up for upstrum. it's not exactly the same as strumming strings, but it's pretty easy to get used to strumming on it. I have been quickly developing some pretty neat strumming techniques. when you have no buttons pressed, you get a muted guitar sound of the last chord played. by strumming and pressing and releasing chord buttons, you can create a very believable guitar sound. I may post a video later.
musiclab has a pretty good video.

macmuse · Post by **macmuse** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:14 pm

Thank you! I totally missed seeing that video...now I get it. I never saw one of these controllers up close before, so when it said press down on the strum bar, (and looking at the small pics of the controller) it had looked to me like a bar you press down, which wouldn't seem like strumming. Now I see what you mean about it. That had some impressive work there.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:13 am

macmuse wrote: I was reading about the GH and the strum bar isn't strummed like you would strum (like on a real guitar) but instead you press this bar down?? How is that? Does this make a more realistic strum than just playing chords on the keyboard with key switches or using patterns?

As mentioned before - you press 5 colored buttons with your left hand (or right hand if you're left-handed) which correspond to setup chords in the "color tab" mode, or strings in the Smart String/Chord mode.

The "strumming" button is basically for up and down strumming. The problem however, is that this is a button without velocity (so it's either on or off). To compensate, you tilt the guitar. In the engine, there is a randomize mode implemented for strumming, which adds randomly +/-20 in terms of velocity depending how far your guitar is tilt.

The official videos sum this up, even though if only hinted at it.

macmuse wrote: Is it actually easier than the keyboard route?

Depends. If you're a keyboard wizard, you can pull something like that off as well. Especially if you know which MIDI notes correspond to the GH guitar in Joystick mode (as written on page 1).

macmuse wrote: How do you tell it what chords you are playing (like you would if you played a chord on a keyboard)?

There is a chord matrix available that you can set up, or use a pre-setup one (like Universal Basic or Universal Advanced) to trigger what you need.

macmuse wrote: And lastly, do you think the results using the GH controller are more authentic than via the keyboard?

Again, depends on your skill level. But I'd say, it's simpler to pull something off that has a more realistic feel on the toy guitar than on keyboard.

macmuse wrote:How about using the patterns?

The patterns from the Pattern Mode in MIDI (Solo, Chords, etc) don't work with the Joystick mode. And they are a bit outdated. But for arp stuff it's still great.

macmuse wrote:And can you still use strumming patterns with this controller, or wouldn't you need to?

You wouldn't need to in the first place (at least the pure strumming modes). However I added some feature requests where you can change the stumming "pattern" in Joystick mode like with the Picking Pattern (these are highly customizable!!!).

I still think such a mode can add more to realism if you only strum half of the chords on upstrum in "Chord Strum" mode (colored button) than what you have available currently. Or if you have a custom pattern setup that the upstrum alternately switches between half-chords and muted or smack sound.

macmuse wrote:If it actually had strings, I might think it was for guitarists who may not be familiar with keyboards, but since it doesn't, that's why I wondered if the result is different.

There is still the "YouRock Guitar", which has strings but buttons as frets. Though I don't know that performs with the RG3 engine's Joystick mode. (don't have one, so I can't give any feedback)

Even without strings and more fret buttons, it's a powerful tool that was massively dumbed down for users to create outstanding results in the process. You saw the two demo videos, there is definitely room for more.

lingyai · Post by **lingyai** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:20 am

Compyfox -- your answers are much more informative / clearly written than anything I've seen from the RG guys. They should be paying you.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:28 am

I take that as a compliment. Why not forward it to Musiclab?

lingyai · Post by **lingyai** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:32 am

Because they hate me

macmuse · Post by **macmuse** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:08 pm

Thanks Compyfox. I had totally missed that video or I wouldn't have had those questions. It does seem to me even in the demo vids that the controller perhaps is more realistic than the keyboard, which I could see possible. I guess maybe no different than a wind controller with sax samples versus trying to achieve it on a keyboard..

Am I to understand that the Guitar Hero World tour was version 4, and GH 5 is the one that has improved slide bar and quieter buttons? The GH 5 referenced is not a World Tour, but just a GH 5 for PS3 (and box says PS3 and PS2) ? Secondly, I'm on a Mac, so I'm hoping a driver won't be an issue. I googled and saw the PS3 Install driver, so hopefully that will work.

fx1mark · Post by **fx1mark** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:47 am

this from the musiclab forum post,

- Guitar Hero controllers

Various models for PS3
Best and fully functional are Guitar Hero 5/World Tour guitars for PS3 and Xbox, Guitar Hero Logitech guitar.
/Note, Xbox version needs optional USB receiver and third party free driver for Mac users/

and this is from the manual,

Which guitar controller?
PlayStation 3 Guitar Hero World Tour/Guitar Hero 5 guitar controller is the best fully functional device to use both on Mac and PC (used on our Demo videos).
Note, no game console needed, only USB wireless receiver.
Other PS3 Guitar Hero guitar models will work as well, but they differ in Star Power (BACK) button appearance, and doesn't have Slider bar. Star Power (BACK) button is multi-functional in Joystick mode layout,

the manuals are free to download, and are an easy read.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:52 am

macmuse wrote:I guess maybe no different than a wind controller with sax samples versus trying to achieve it on a keyboard.

I think this was their intention.

macmuse wrote: Am I to understand that the Guitar Hero World tour was version 4, and GH 5 is the one that has improved slide bar and quieter buttons? The GH 5 referenced is not a World Tour, but just a GH 5 for PS3 (and box says PS3 and PS2) ?

In the demo video, they're using a PS3 guitar. PS2 (PlayStation2) guitars with custom USB adapters don't work as intended. I wrote a post almost at the bottom of the first page where I describe which guitar is which (the GH4/5 gutiars are essentially the same, only minor changes inside and a different faceplate outside of Europe: IIRC - red cherry and sunburst design).

macmuse wrote:Secondly, I'm on a Mac, so I'm hoping a driver won't be an issue. I googled and saw the PS3 Install driver, so hopefully that will work.

It should. There is also one for Mac for the Windows branch IIRC.

fx1mark wrote:...and this is from the manual,

Which guitar controller?
PlayStation 3 Guitar Hero World Tour/Guitar Hero 5 guitar controller is the best fully functional device to use both on Mac and PC (used on our Demo videos).
Note, no game console needed, only USB wireless receiver.

This is the very reason why Musiclab recommends to go the PS3 route. The PS3 controllers come bundled with USB wireless receivers. Especially since the protocol of the wireless controllers for PS3 are not native like Sony's 6-axis wireless game pad. (Sony was very hesistant back in the day to give out specs)

If you had a PS3, you plugged in the USB receiver, grabbed your guitar, cascaded the devices (I think similar to the XB360 ones with the "connect device" button) and started playing. A carefree solution.

XB360 controllers do not come with such a device (logical, since they work at the console without messing around!) and you need to either have it for PC/MAC already (they once came bundled with Wireless gamepads, and were also sold seperately - not anymore I'm afraid), or grab one off of the net. Sadly, all these guitars never offered a direct USB port.

The Logitech PC guitar is basically an USB guitar and works right off the bat. Though here only GH3 and GH4 World Tour exist for PC/Mac bundled with a controller. I'm not too sure on the PC version of GH Aerosmith.

I'd link to the German Wikipedia entry for more info (since it's surprisingly more detailed than the US version), but I think I got the point across.

Again, RockBand guitar controllers (both PS3 and XB360) should also work. They just don't have a touch sensor and the StarPower (Select Button) is not at the bridge. If I just saw that right, the RockBand 1 guitars are all USB (cabled), while the RockBand2 accessories are wireless. Though since the controllers are interchangable between consoles, I think they need a common wireless adapter. I do not(!) know if they are bundled with the PS3 version, again with XB360 they run right out of the box.

braj · Post by **braj** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:11 pm

fx1mark wrote:macmuse, you can download the manuals from musiclabs website. you can assign virtually any chord to any button, or combination of buttons with a maximum of 31 chords. 12 chords realisticly in my opinion, because they start to get to be a stretch to reach. 12 chords will cover most songs, or verse, chorus.
you strum the controller, down for downstrum, up for upstrum. it's not exactly the same as strumming strings, but it's pretty easy to get used to strumming on it. I have been quickly developing some pretty neat strumming techniques. when you have no buttons pressed, you get a muted guitar sound of the last chord played. by strumming and pressing and releasing chord buttons, you can create a very believable guitar sound. I may post a video later.
musiclab has a pretty good video.

That's really impressive! I wish the price to play was cheaper, I don't see me getting the controller and the plugin anytime soon, but it looks like a really incredible combination. I never played Guitar Hero much, but I'm guessing you could make a pretty beautiful custom controller out of real wood and maybe not ape a guitar so much but just make a highly functional instrument. Cannibalizing a NanoKontroller or drum pad or two could for some crazy custom instruments. It just makes me think how controllers could really open musicianship up, instead of humans wrapping ourselves around an instruments mechanical designs with technology we can wrap the instruments around us.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:27 pm

It is possible with whatever you feel like. The "joystick" control (the note on/off data) is registed from A7 to F8.

Prices for controllers are a ripoff on Amazon and Co however.

fx1mark · Post by **fx1mark** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:56 pm

I think it's pretty brilliant, If they could put out a piece of software for around $100. I could imagine non-musicians with a little rythm, sitting around playing songs and singing. you can easily program in the chords to a song and everyone would be like, blue, red, green, yellow. smoke on the water....
right now the investment is pretty substantial, I have all three guitars, plus amplitube 3 plus the controller. so it won't happen tomorrow, but maybe one day.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:46 am

Actually it is happening already.

For example:
I don't know it it's the RockBand or GuitarHero "Band" drums, but you can use them as MIDI controllers for drum VSTi's. Plenty of manuals on the web. The DIY E-Drum userbase is also massive.

Need a glitch trigger device, grab a WiiMote and a BlueTooth USB receiver. Heck even X/Y pads are affordable now (Korg NanoControl comes to mind).

The thing I have a problem with, are the "overpriced" sales of old GH/RB equipment. These games are officially discontinued (for the time being), so prices raise since people are like "rare stuff!", even if it isn't.

Else, yes... I think something like this (custom controller) is possible with ARDUINO boards and some DIY stuff.

But back to the initial topic:
What is your general thought on the RG3 engine? Doesn't matter if with a game controller or with plain MIDI?

RealGuitar (and RealStrat/RealLP) 3 -- thoughts, issues etc?