I am a user of ACE since the first version, and I'm generally happy with the sound.
However, the interface design is very, very confusing for a synth of this complexity.
[edited out bit about wrong colours, my bad!]
I have an analog modular system, and coming from there, I can't fathom why all the inputs and outputs are unlabelled in ACE. This must be the worst design flaw of all, and because of this I still after a long time didn't do any very creative patch design, because I don't want to memorize all things, and all the time have the manual around.
Or, in the other case the labels are misleading. Like, OSC FM input says "adsr2", and things like that.
ACE interface critique & ideas
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- KVRian
- 1262 posts since 15 May, 2002 from Finland
Last edited by Taika-Kim on Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
To be honest, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. What kind of labels should the inputs and outputs have? "Input" and "Output"? And some routings are hardwired (but can be overwritten) - hence the ADSR2 label. But you must know this, because you have the manual opened all the time.
Maybe I'm being dense, but I don't see your point. I think the interface is well thought-out and easily comprehensible.
Maybe I'm being dense, but I don't see your point. I think the interface is well thought-out and easily comprehensible.
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- KVRAF
- 4197 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
The ARP 2600, probably the most common educational synth ever, also used normalized routing. Is it really so hard to understand?
BTW the rule for distinguishing between inputs and outputs is almost too simple: All outputs are located on the sides of modules, except for the bottom row of mod sources.
Not true....all the inputs and outputs are unlabelled in ACE.
BTW the rule for distinguishing between inputs and outputs is almost too simple: All outputs are located on the sides of modules, except for the bottom row of mod sources.
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- KVRist
- 407 posts since 24 Aug, 2004 from under the big oak tree
All outputs are silver and all inputs are black. Simple 
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- KVRAF
- 4197 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
Yeah, there's that as well! IIRC those colours haven't changed since beta versions.jackrabbit wrote:All outputs are silver and all inputs are black. Simple
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1262 posts since 15 May, 2002 from Finland
Oops my bad about colours, I've been now reading the manual and trying things out, and slowly getting to grips with everything. But I still think it's confusing, maybe it's because of the pre-routing, that things were not behaving like I expected.
One very annoying thing about all U-He synths I have used are the abbreviated parameter names. I use Reaper and Renoise, and in both creating automations is a pain since there are for example several parameters like "atk" instead of "env1 atk", "env 2 atk", etc.
Direct entering of values into knobs with a keyboard would be useful.
I still think the inputs and outputs could be labelled. Like on filters, without reading the manual or trying things out, it's impossible to know if both inputs are for the cutoff, or maybe the first is for the gain, since it's directly below it. Since the similarily unlabelled FM input in oscillators is by similar placement an amount knob for the parameter above it.
On my Eurorack panels things are like "FM input", "CV input", "audio out", etc. Very clear, even if the functionality behind the panels might be esoteric.
Also I think it's a bad choice to have unlabelled functionality integrated in the modules. Like the LFO2 sync slew limiting. Since it's a computer GUI, it would be couretous to change the knob to read something like "slew" for example if the S/H input is connected.
Also the first times I tried making traditional sync sounds I failed, because I didn't remember from the manual that the sync is hardwired, I was just wondering why it's not picking the restart signal from the input...
With oscillators, you just need to know which one is the osc and which the sub-osc... The interface is full of stuff like this, and if you don't use the software for say 6 months like I had a break from producing, you might have forgotten a lot of this unlabelled functionality.
Floating tooltips would help a lot, since a lot of the functionality depends on what cables are connected and where (like with the multiples, of which I just re-read the description, but still can't remember how it works in a few weeks time!).
One very annoying thing about all U-He synths I have used are the abbreviated parameter names. I use Reaper and Renoise, and in both creating automations is a pain since there are for example several parameters like "atk" instead of "env1 atk", "env 2 atk", etc.
Direct entering of values into knobs with a keyboard would be useful.
I still think the inputs and outputs could be labelled. Like on filters, without reading the manual or trying things out, it's impossible to know if both inputs are for the cutoff, or maybe the first is for the gain, since it's directly below it. Since the similarily unlabelled FM input in oscillators is by similar placement an amount knob for the parameter above it.
On my Eurorack panels things are like "FM input", "CV input", "audio out", etc. Very clear, even if the functionality behind the panels might be esoteric.
Also I think it's a bad choice to have unlabelled functionality integrated in the modules. Like the LFO2 sync slew limiting. Since it's a computer GUI, it would be couretous to change the knob to read something like "slew" for example if the S/H input is connected.
Also the first times I tried making traditional sync sounds I failed, because I didn't remember from the manual that the sync is hardwired, I was just wondering why it's not picking the restart signal from the input...
With oscillators, you just need to know which one is the osc and which the sub-osc... The interface is full of stuff like this, and if you don't use the software for say 6 months like I had a break from producing, you might have forgotten a lot of this unlabelled functionality.
Floating tooltips would help a lot, since a lot of the functionality depends on what cables are connected and where (like with the multiples, of which I just re-read the description, but still can't remember how it works in a few weeks time!).
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- KVRian
- 1095 posts since 12 Jan, 2011
You're being unkind, IMO.
I'm all for communication and sharing information, but creating a thread to complain about the layout/design/GUI of a U-he plugin just seems wrong to me. Urs provides excellent user support and is extremely active on KVR. He would listen to any feedback and suggestion you might have about his plugins. If valid or doable he would probably address the issue. You just need to post about it on that plugin's (ACE in this case) thread or shoot him a PM or Email. If what you want is to clear up/improve a knob labeling issue, you are going about it the wrong way.
I'm all for communication and sharing information, but creating a thread to complain about the layout/design/GUI of a U-he plugin just seems wrong to me. Urs provides excellent user support and is extremely active on KVR. He would listen to any feedback and suggestion you might have about his plugins. If valid or doable he would probably address the issue. You just need to post about it on that plugin's (ACE in this case) thread or shoot him a PM or Email. If what you want is to clear up/improve a knob labeling issue, you are going about it the wrong way.
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- KVRist
- 50 posts since 16 May, 2009
In Reaper, you can avoid this by using the "show last touched FX parameters only" feature in the track envelope menu. For instance- if you wanted to automate a filter cutoff, just click the cutoff knob on the synth, then click the track's envelope button, then check the "show last touched FX parameters only" box. This will hide all parameters except the filter cutoff.Taika-Kim wrote: One very annoying thing about all U-He synths I have used are the abbreviated parameter names. I use Reaper and Renoise, and in both creating automations is a pain since there are for example several parameters like "atk" instead of "env1 atk", "env 2 atk", etc.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1262 posts since 15 May, 2002 from Finland
I just thought this is the easiest and most open forum to tell my opinion.
I love U-he plugins's sounds, now they're almost the only VSTs I use anymore! (I use the free Tyrell & Zebra plugins a lot too, didn't yet try out the new stuff except for Bazille which I loved a lot already in the early beat one year back)
I'm just expressing my opinion, to me it feels that it can't be only me if an experienced user of even real analog modulars has heavy initial problems with getting into the software. Don't definitely want to be unkind!
I also edited my first note to be softer, I was writing it from a bus where I was busily trying to work on a project on a deadline, and hitting problems with the interface again.
And thanks dyiid for the tip!
I love U-he plugins's sounds, now they're almost the only VSTs I use anymore! (I use the free Tyrell & Zebra plugins a lot too, didn't yet try out the new stuff except for Bazille which I loved a lot already in the early beat one year back)
I'm just expressing my opinion, to me it feels that it can't be only me if an experienced user of even real analog modulars has heavy initial problems with getting into the software. Don't definitely want to be unkind!
I also edited my first note to be softer, I was writing it from a bus where I was busily trying to work on a project on a deadline, and hitting problems with the interface again.
And thanks dyiid for the tip!
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- KVRAF
- 5223 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
I found ACE quite confusing at first as well. In fact I think I remember Urs saying something about it's (shockingly) low price being partly inspired by it's complexity and esoteric-ness possibly putting people off, and the fact that he didn't think many people would get into it (where's the deadmow plucks maaahhn?).
That said, ACE was the first truely modular (no distinction between voices and control signals) synth I've tried and it served me well as a tooth-cutter. There is a logic to the layout of the inputs, outputs and knobs which is explained in the manual. Sure, there are cases where this logic is bent, but that's for usability's sake first and foremost. Maybe it could be improved? Constructive criticism can only help in this regard.
ACE still surprises me in the emergant properties you can create and the things it can do.
That said, ACE was the first truely modular (no distinction between voices and control signals) synth I've tried and it served me well as a tooth-cutter. There is a logic to the layout of the inputs, outputs and knobs which is explained in the manual. Sure, there are cases where this logic is bent, but that's for usability's sake first and foremost. Maybe it could be improved? Constructive criticism can only help in this regard.
ACE still surprises me in the emergant properties you can create and the things it can do.
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1262 posts since 15 May, 2002 from Finland
Yes, I'm reeeeeallly waiting for the upcoming Berlin Modular, after getting into analog modulars, anything else for sound programming feels stunted... They're pretty useless for songwriting though, try spending 30 minutes creating a bass sound, and see what that does to the flow... So that's why I still write songs on VSTs and afterwards create proper sounds with more time on my hands when the song has been laid down already.
And, incidentally I got ACE just before my modular, and I remeber I was like seriously WOWed when I realized you could route stuff so freely. I love deep mod matrixes like on the Evolver or Q synths, but always wondered why you couldn't just patch anything to where ever :)
Well getting out of topic, but I'd love to see something like a VST4 modular standard where you could patch control signals from one VST to another freely...
And, incidentally I got ACE just before my modular, and I remeber I was like seriously WOWed when I realized you could route stuff so freely. I love deep mod matrixes like on the Evolver or Q synths, but always wondered why you couldn't just patch anything to where ever :)
Well getting out of topic, but I'd love to see something like a VST4 modular standard where you could patch control signals from one VST to another freely...
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- KVRist
- 215 posts since 21 Nov, 2012
My initial reaction to Ace and Bazille was that I had an easier time understanding Bazille. For me I think this was due to the fact that Bazille does not have anything pre-wired under the hood. What you see is what you get. Would it be feasible option to add an option to deactivate the hardwired (normalized?) connections in Ace?
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- u-he
- 30230 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
I've been thinking about that.Stollmeister wrote:Would it be feasible option to add an option to deactivate the hardwired (normalized?) connections in Ace?
Also, adding labels that switch with input source have been on my list for a long time too.
Once we get that major maintenance update out we'll certainly have more time to improve things.
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- KVRist
- 183 posts since 28 Jun, 2010
This thread reminded me of something...
Last year I was faced with the question "What plug-in would be the best gift for someone learning synthesis?"
After looking at many plug-ins I choose ACE, and got it as a gift for my brother
(Come to think of it, I miss ACE, and still need my own license!)
I agree that's it's a challenge to get into, however it's so cool because you need to learn to make the most of each module. I think that is what makes it amazing. It's the RISC processor of synth plug-ins
My only issue with ACE is the CPU use. Yeah I know they warn you on the site, but it's honestly the thing that has made me hesitate from licensing a copy for myself.
Would love to see dynamic labels, and I'm excited to experience the finished mutli-core support.
Best regards,
Gino
Last year I was faced with the question "What plug-in would be the best gift for someone learning synthesis?"
After looking at many plug-ins I choose ACE, and got it as a gift for my brother
(Come to think of it, I miss ACE, and still need my own license!)
I agree that's it's a challenge to get into, however it's so cool because you need to learn to make the most of each module. I think that is what makes it amazing. It's the RISC processor of synth plug-ins
My only issue with ACE is the CPU use. Yeah I know they warn you on the site, but it's honestly the thing that has made me hesitate from licensing a copy for myself.
Would love to see dynamic labels, and I'm excited to experience the finished mutli-core support.
Best regards,
Gino