MuTools

sl23 · Post by **sl23** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:56 am

Crackbaby wrote:
General Forum Rules
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Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will result in your post being edited / deleted, and you may be issued with a warning and / or a ban.
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My apologies please point to where I did that?

sl23 · Post by **sl23** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:16 am

If you're referring to this...

And as for my only arguement being what others do, are you seriously that stupid? Companies follow exactly that which is what you even said yourself??? They follow what people want so if the majority want touchscreen then they're going to make it. I'm in the minority for wanting an android smartphone with a keypad, do you think they'll make one just for me? Ridiculous! And if you seriously believe their are more power PC users than those with low power systems you're dreaming.

Then that's you're misinterpretation, thinking I'm having a go at you when it's just how I see it. And that's exactly why I said this...

Anyway you have your opinion and I respect that you want to believe that so let's just forget it as I don't want this getting outta hand, ok, after all this is just my opinion as yours is your own. I'm not trying to argue with you, in case I'm coming across like that

Yet you insisted on carrying on the conversation. I knew it would end up that way and I was trying to avoid any possible unpleasantness being perceived.

The fact is, you actually are being narrow minded. That's in no way an attack of character, if the grass is green why say it's blue? Just to be polite and avoid bruising ego's because it doesn't like being green? I'm not being aggressive, I'm not being abusive, if I was you'd know it

You contradicted yourself. I pointed it out. That's all. Now can we drop this before it gets out of hand please? I said I respect your pov, which I do, I think you're wrong you think I'm wrong so let's agree to disagree ok?

No hard feelings eh?

EDIT: Btw...
You seem to have ignored the fact that you insinuated that I'm gullible and childish, but that's ok is it? Pot and Kettle spring to mind! Don't worry I'm not offended

MuTools · Post by **MuTools** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:21 pm

sl23 wrote:
mutools wrote:Hope this info helps in understanding certain design decissions. It's all an on going process though. Life is constantly changing. Thanks for all very interesting feedback so far. It's interesting to read all these different point of views!
HAHA I bet you're laughing your ass off!!! That was all my point was 'Life is constantly changing' but it always ends up people thinking their pov is better!

I'm not laughing at all in this context. Not sure what you meant there, sl23. And i also think that you may be doing yourself what you're blaming to others. As far as i know you i'm quite sure you don't mean it in a destructive/bad way, but please do take care of your words and try to think twice when posting more extreme words. Well, anyway, we're all but humans, and we all make little mistakes from time to time.

On topic: I think we all agree that the little pocket touchscreen devices won't replace the power of desktops. And though there currently is a big move from desktops to 'quick and easy' mobile devices, it won't delete the need for powerful extended desktops. The current rebalancing will stabelize in a couple of years i think. Both mobiles and desktops will become more powerful the next years and the advantages will be exchanged so i can imagine we'll work on touchscreen desktops soon too. (with still a keyboard and mouse available) and get more powerful and modular mobile devices so you can connect whatever you need. It's a big challenge for the 'traditional' keyboard-/mouse-based apps to adapt to this new ways of user interfacing.

> DiGiT < · Post by **> DiGiT <** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:36 pm

why does discussion always degenerate into bickering in this forum?

sl23 · Post by **sl23** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:14 pm

I think because people can only see things from their own perspective and think THEY are right and don't like anyone rocking their little boat.

And i also think that you may be doing yourself what you're blaming to others. As far as i know you i'm quite sure you don't mean it in a destructive/bad way, but please do take care of your words and try to think twice when posting more extreme words.

I think you best look back on this discussion and see who was the one starting something before throwing accusations about. But yes I see your point - noted.

BrokenTrance · Post by **BrokenTrance** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:05 pm

[edit]

pquenin · Post by **pquenin** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:58 pm

sl23 wrote:Imagine having a hi res 13" Tablet running MuLab with a, hopefully by then, a wireless controller KB.

I have Mulab running on a 17" laptop (1920*1080) and things are very tiny, so I can't imagine what can be done on a hi res 13" tablet, it will be incomfortable to work with such a small screen.

Well, I have Nanostudio running on my 10" iPad and I really love it, but this app has been specifically designed (and very well) for the iPad resolution, the little CPU, and touchscreen.

I will be happy to see Mulab on a tablet, but Mulab internal instruments and fx need a lot of CPU, and the GUI have to be adapted, so I think we can wait some years before it's possible.

dakkra · Post by **dakkra** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:31 pm

The only CPU that can (maybe) handle this type of precessing is the tegra 3/4 (there may be more but that's the only one I know of). Quad core and 1gb of RAM. However, the RAM limits alot of things such as UI and each of its cores don't even touch what my old dual core laptop can do.

I really don't want my laptop turning to a tablet mainly for connectivity. My current tablet has a headphone jack and a micro USB charging/ file transfer port. How do I connect a MIDI device to that. How about four MIDI devices? Sure some tablets have a normal USB port that I can connect a MIDI device to but, one tablet won't power my four devices. Sure I could use a wall plug USB hub but that defeats the purpose of portability yes?

Next is screen size. I currently work on a 15" 1280/800 screen. Fairly low resolution for today's standards but it works. I can see everything in Mulab with ease. My 7" tablet is good for web browsing, book/magazine reading, checking email, and maybe play a game of Angry Birds. Beyond that my tablet is relatively useless due to screen size.

Then there is the problem with the OS itself. Windows 8 is one screwed up OS (In my opinion). Using that OS on a laptop is insane. Too many new gestures to learn. Too many interfaces to learn.

There are many more reasons why I don't think tablets can be an optimal future for DAW work. Touch screen maybe. If you made my laptops screen a 15" touch screen I wouldn't complain too much. Tablets however, just don't have enough to work with.

sl23 · Post by **sl23** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:51 pm

pquenin wrote:I have Mulab running on a 17" laptop (1920*1080) and things are very tiny, so I can't imagine what can be done on a hi res 13" tablet, it will be incomfortable to work with such a small screen.

Well, I have Nanostudio running on my 10" iPad and I really love it, but this app has been specifically designed (and very well) for the iPad resolution, the little CPU, and touchscreen.

I will be happy to see Mulab on a tablet, but Mulab internal instruments and fx need a lot of CPU, and the GUI have to be adapted, so I think we can wait some years before it's possible.

I respect that, I never said it would be soon. By that time CPU's will be more powerful, RAM will be higher and MuLab will have adjusted aesthetically to suit the smaller screens and large fingers! But some think it won't happen simply because they don't want it to, but if Jo decides, he's already stated he's interested in touchscreen tech, it's the best thing to further MuLab's success then what do you think will happen?

As for NanoStudio, not tried that, but I imagine it's great to mess about with, it looks fantastic!

I don't have a problem using MuLab and I have a 13" laptop screen 1366x768. I admit your current VST's would be difficult to edit via touchscreen, but then they'd be updated or outdated by then.

Nice to see someone agrees that it would be good to see MuLab on a Tablet though

sl23 · Post by **sl23** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:09 pm

@ dakkra:
Chances are it'll be a long transition period but I suspect it'll be many years before PC's/Laptops become old tech, that could be 50 years away! Maybe more? I think you're safe

I'd love to get a decent system to make music on, I thought my current one would have been good enough yet when I use two tracks with two MuX's CPU hits 40% Avg!!! So I get why you keep going on about CPU's being the problem. My point was that in 5, 10, 20 years do will you still be using the same CPU? No, that's absurd.

Do you think that ANY hardware will use today's CPU's in future technology? No? Tech will advance, look back ten years to see how quickly. So, why are you against what I'm saying? I appreciate you want/like your current setup and don't want/need/like to change it. Eventually though, you will, when tech has advanced sufficiently to warrant it. By then you could have a change of heart about touch-tech??

dakkra · Post by **dakkra** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:25 pm

I'm actually fairly interested in touch screens. Not tablets. As I said earlier, if you made my laptops screen a touch screen, you wouldn't hear very much complaining. However tablets simply lack the size/power/connectivity I need.

I agree that technology will advance. 5 years ago getting a core 2 duo laptop like mine was expensive. Now they're obsolete! My point is that tablets CURRENTLY lack what I need. I'm sure in 5-15 years we may be able to move on but, that will be 5 years from now. 5 years from now we may have 100 core laptops and 50 core tablets (for all I know

). Laptops will always be more powerful than tablets. Desktops will always be more powerful than laptops. Currently my tablet is a convenience device and a MIDI controller. I love having it around so I can readily get something done. DAW work however would go much faster with a keyboard and a mouse. I can be much more accurate and work quicker with a laptop.

I have used Nano Studio and Pocket Band and Zquence. All work fine on tablets. All less feature packed than a laptop DAW. All take MUCH longer to work with. Even with an optimized UI I will always work faster with a keyboard and mouse. Sure it'll be cool when I can use my laptops screen to hit buttons or adjust a slider but that's the only real use of a touch screen in DAW work (at least for myself)

Touch screens yes!
Tablets no!

DHR53 · Post by **DHR53** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:26 pm

50 years? For field work and service businesses, tablets are already replacing laptops... I'm planning that a lot of my work in the future will be converting printed material and pdfs to epub. Laptops are already old tech...

sl23 · Post by **sl23** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:31 pm

@ dakkra:
"DAW work however would go much faster with a keyboard and a mouse. I can be much more accurate and work quicker with a laptop."

Currently, yes but as touch is embraced that will change, it's till a very new area.

"Touch screens yes!
Tablets no!"

That's fair enough. Acer have released the S7 with touch, though I doubt its ability to cope with DAW's. I don't use/like Keyboard much and would be far better/quicker with touchscreen.

@ DHR53:
"tablets are already replacing laptops..."
"Laptops are already old tech..."

Exactly. That would mean they are on their way out. Wouldn't it?

Why are desktops always more powerful than laptops and laptops than tablets? I don't know but I bet it's to do with money. Why haven't petrol/diesel engines been replaced years ago with free energy? If it's REALLY causing the planet that much harm, surely performance should come secondary! MONEY is the reason. Always has been always will be. The big (knob-)cheeses like it that way. doesn't mean it can't be done.

As I said, Intel already have placed restrictions on Netbook/Ultrabook spec, why? Personally I can't see a reason for it. Imagine your powerPC with whatever the current HiSpec CPU is with 16GB of RAM in a tablet running windows8? Is that really just a dream? It's possible, NOW! They won't do so, do you see why? Because the tech is drip fed to us so they can make money on every little step of advance.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:42 pm

sl23 wrote:Why are desktops always more powerful than laptops and laptops than tablets?

Because:

* you can fit a bigger and more powerful PSU with mroe headroom, which allows for more components to be added
* motherboard is bigger so you can provide much more expandability via different ports
* there are more slots for RAM
* there are much more slots for HDD
* there is much more room in the case for cooling
* CPUs made for desktops are simply faster and they are always going to be faster, because when you start scaling things down to lower power usage/smaller form factor, the inevitable third factor that is going to have to be compensated negatively is the performance/processing power.

That's how things are, and how they're continue to be for the foreseeable time.

It has nothing to do with money, but it has a lot to do with available real estate within the usual desktop case. More real estate allows better power supplies, which in turn allows more advanced CPU designs to be powered (and overclocked, if you will) and used to greater extent. Tablets are always going to be power-saving devices because of their form factor. This will always limit the processing power of them, and they will always be slower and less capable than desktops because of that.

sl23 · Post by **sl23** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:42 pm

Makes sense, but:

* PSU - if components were made to use less power in the first place they wouldn't need huge PSU.
* Expansion is going wireless. Eventually, power will be wireless.
* RAM is getting smaller/faster, as is everything else.
* HDD is getting smaller/faster, as is everything else.
* Cooling, I suppose is the only real issue, but then that is overcome all the time. If it wasn't then we'd still be using 30 year old processors!
* You can only make things so fast before faster becomes pointless. I mean really, look at consoles. When they become so graphically advanced that they can display anything at any speed, what then? Are they still going to make bigger better consoles? they wouldn't sell! If your console is capable of real world three dimensional graphics how can you improve on that? You can't

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