Berlin Modular (ancient thread)

[EvilDragon]

Bazille, well, I can't find a solid word on its future. I'm not going to bother learning a synth, especially Bazille with not even a manual! if someone doesn't buck up and straighten this mess out. An awful lot of disorganisation around here it seems.

Alpha programs (like Bazille currently is) usually don't have ANY documentation, you know? You can bet the final release will have full documentation, will look better, and everything will make more sense.

I have a hunch u-he will show something new Bazille related on Musikmesse. So it's worth to stay tuned.

[pdxindy]

Bazille, well, I can't find a solid word on its future. I'm not going to bother learning a synth, especially Bazille with not even a manual!

Bazille is currently a pre-release alpha version... it is pre beta and is not feature complete. It will expire and no longer be useable. It has no included presets, manual, or official support and there is no guarantee that presets made with the alpha will sound exactly the same in the release version. All of these things are the nature of a free, pre-release trial version. Use and learn at your own risk.

I think it likely that sometime this year Bazille will be officially released (but there is no guarantee). When it is, it will no longer be free and I expect it will cost in the range of Diva and Zebra. That is just my guess and in no way indicates any statement by u-he regarding price. None has been made AFAIK. Personally, I would not think twice to pay $200 for Bazille. It is that good. The sound quality is second to none and the featureset is unique. No other synth is even close feature-wise.

[The Telenator]

I'll answer a few here for clarity's sake:

First to directly answer bmrzycki's ugly accusations --

[Crackbaby wrote:
"Did you just accuse him of using cracked u-he software?"]

bmrzycki wrote:
Did you notice in the OP's post the two things he/she "fears"? One wonders why he/she "fears" these problems and how he/she even knows about them in the first place.

1. melting gui
2. a "hole" in the effects section

ANSWER: Yes, I fear change. I fear that this nice Bazille that has been on the u-he site for ages but could never test with will get messed beyond recognition. Take away the funky army green, add a second page and make it rot like every other multi-page bloated synth, and I won't give you 10 cents for it. I rather like it the way it is, but from the way these betas are getting 'fixed' around here I'm thinking Bazille is likely to get ruined. I don't trust any of you any farther than I could throw you at this point. My school's musician's motto: 'Anything you don't understand is trying to F with you'. I'll give you $79 US if it survives and you can deliver in about two weeks. And not a penny more. Or just sell it to me AS IS for $50 (that's all it's worth atm). It's fine enough as is. Really. after this here today, you ought to pay me to take it.

Wise UP! No. 1 The melting GUI: I heard about good 4 years ago, before I'd ever even SEEN a u-he synth. And the freaking whole world of synth players knows about it. Do your homework, bmrzycki.

No. 2 The Hole: Duh and Double Duh, apparently my accuser hasn't even TRIED Bazille. If you click on effects, there is a big black hole there where FX were going to go someday, until opting for a Page 2, like every other synth now annoyingly has.

But if I do decide to buy it, if ever finished, my new rule is that NOBODY'S synth is worth more than $100 anymore. If the Waves' brand new Element, most Arturia (I ought rather to buy their Oberheim), Z3TA+2 (with some sweet improvements), and a whole bunch of others are $100 or less, then I'm sure as hell not paying a dollar more for anything u-he, especially after what I've seen and experienced here.

I don't want VST3, don't want 64-bit, don't want any major changes from what I've seen. I'll toss all that rubbish right away. ACE works out to I think $109 US, so that's close enough, but I no longer buy all this hard work crap. If others say $100 is fine for theirs, you better get competitive or, just like what's happening to plugs suddenly, will only be able to move them at 50% off. The market is changing and very very soon the uber-high-pricing is OVER.

I'm half convinced already that I ought to just keep the couple of mag and freeware u-he's and head for higher ground. My ears never lie to me. NEVER. I'll take the Arturia Oberheim over CPU-killer Diva any day. Take the hot new Z3TA+2 over Zebra any day, go for maybe Mono/Poly over ACE?

You see, I was totally sold and just fine with the freebies and the ACE I was testing until all this beta stuff -- never had an issue with a u-he synth, Never. Now it's nothing BUT issues. And VST3 is a loser, so lose it. Ask anyone outside this rarified airspace.

Y'all understand now? Don't anyone ever dare accuse me in these threads ever again. Shame on him. Shame on the rest for not throttling him. Let me sleep on it, and I'll probably be sorry I ever heard of u-he.

[bmrzycki]

The Telenator,
I sincerely apologize for implying you pirated software. I'm human and make mistakes and also am influenced by my emotions.

Your original post caught me at a bad time and raised a lot of warning flags for illegal users looking for free support around here -- something that happens around here more often than I'd like:

1. you have a low post count and are a relatively new user
2. you mentioned the melting gui problem -- something that is designed to only be triggered on illegal copies.
3. You mentioned problems with the new betas -- another red flag as the u-he team often updates the authentication engine to lock out the newest round of stolen keys.
4. You mentioned a desire to stick at a certain software version and not wanting to upgrade -- as is mentioned in #3 old illegal keys still work with old versions of software.
5. The black hole FX problem -- through serendipity you used terminology almost identical to a newer form of delayed copy protection in the latest Zebra2 software 2.5+ releases.

Any one or two of these and I would have ignored it, but all 5 made me highly suspicious. What I should have said to you were I not letting my emotions get the better of me is the following:

Bazille isn't freeware and is still in Alpha/Beta state. Urs has kindly offered everyone the ability to use it until he finishes it. This means there are no manuals or official presets and it also means at one point all the demos will expire. He has been releasing new versions annually because he's been busy attending to other products. At some point Bazille will become a commercial product with demo limitations. You also shouldn't consider it's current look to be final. It's highly likely the effect section will be reworked before a 1.0 release.

The melting GUI problem was a counter-protection added (as far as I know) only to Zebra2 and is only activated when it detects specific illegal keys or crack attempts. Registered users should never experience it and in the rare case they ever did I's expect u-he team would resolve the issue promptly. As a registered user of Zebra you'd have nothing to worry about.

----

Lastly I'd like to say that I don't speak for u-he, Urs, or anyone else around here but myself. Don't drag anyone else into this mess -- something I wish I never started. Let's get back to talking about Bazille, please.

[zerocrossing]

Bazille is excellent. Bazille is alpha. Bazille is free... for now. Your current version will most definitely stop working. Then, it's time to pay. Frankly I feel every piece of software I've purchased from U-He (and it's all of them) is well worth it.

I don't use Bazille. Why? I already own Vaz Modular and I love it. I find it to be on par with the best and it's a mature currently developed piece of commercial software. So if you're really worried a about Bazille (I don't think you should be) don't sweat it. Suck it up and buy Vaz Modular and get it on. It's one of the most analog hardware sounding plug-ins I own. (and at this point I feel like I own them all!)

[Brittlestem]

Don't anyone ever dare accuse me in these threads ever again.

[pdxindy]

Y'all understand now?

Yup... You need a hug...

[Urs]

Let me sleep on it, and I'll probably be sorry I ever heard of u-he.

Look, last night and today I had what was almost a proper a weekend. No internet in more than 24 hours.

Now you throw shit at me for something I didn't do. That's just gross, really.

Firstly, what's hard to understand about software being "alpha"? It means "incomplete, with pending changes". If you look at the thread and the history, people begged for it to be released prematurely. So we did, and it has worked very well for years. There was no need to push things forward because honestly, we didn't need the money, but we needed to do other things first.

Secondly, what's hard to understand about doing *proper* and *thorough* beta testing? The update that's still happening - with a new public beta around the corner - is exactly what many people have proposed to many companies before: "Fix you f**king bugs instead of releasing new shit". Yes, fixing old bugs and niggles takes time, it costs a lot of money, updates don't create as much revenue as new stuff and it's a tedious and draining process. That's why many companies don't do it. They just keep the bugs and let you live with it. They even fade sucked dry products out off the market. Just so. But we're different. We said "hey, let's do this". We've collected every bug report that we could get hold onto, and we've desected hundreds of parts of code to make it better - for all plugins, even 7 years old freeware. It's a question of attitude.

That's why some consider us one of the best companies around. YMMV.

- Urs

For the records, ACE is $85 US, Bazille will be in the Diva-ish region. Bazille will have a similarly tabbed interface as ACE. The final version is widely preset compatible, with few exceptions that we'll document. Like all our commercial stuff, it'll have a proper user guide.

[TomTwohy]

Oh well , Urs...

From my perspective, this fellow is trying to cope with a limited budget and a lot of needless pride. A tradition as American as apple pie (albeit from the supermarket freezer). He just wants to be sure... with trust in short supply.

I can get like this myself some days... one has to watch out for the fierce anger that middle age can bring.

Sadly, this "bargaining" may continue. Times are hard in America and we aging baby-boomers are getting the worst of it, frays the nerves. We just can't imagine living with less.

Certainly no excuse for his remarks though, please don't let such manipulative chatter get you down...

... why Just today I was reading how Zebra was used in "Inception". Well, of COURSE it was! Your software is just wonderful... at a shockingly fair price

So much of what you do just trills us old synth geeks.

Take pride in that!

[EvilDragon]

I'll take the Arturia Oberheim over CPU-killer Diva any day. Take the hot new Z3TA+2 over Zebra any day, go for maybe Mono/Poly over ACE?

And you'd make a mistake in each of those, because those "substitutes" aren't even in the same quality range at all. Diva just sounds so much better than anything Arturia, z3ta has NOTHING on Zebra 2, sound quality wise, Mono/poly is ok but it doesn't do ACE's semi-modularity at all and definitely doesn't have as sweet sounding filters.

Shame on him.

Shame on who? Urs? Urs didn't do anything bad, so don't you accuse the man without reason. Shame on YOU for even thinking that.

Let me sleep on it, and I'll probably be sorry I ever heard of u-he.

And THAT would be your biggest mistake.

[Howard]

Shame on him.

Shame on who? Urs? Urs didn't do anything bad, so don't you accuse the man without reason. Shame on YOU for even thinking that.

Telenators "shame" accusation was mainly addressed to Brian (bmrzycki). Equally misplaced, of course!

[kelvyn]

This thread like too many others these days (not only here but on other forums as well) is beginning to resemble (with the unkind and aggressive dialogue) the kind of show one associates with people like 'Jerry Springer'.
What's up? That a developer like Urs (who has been nothing but open and gracious on this forum) finds it necessary to defend or rationalise his companies actions in this way casts a very strange light on how we interact with each other.
Knee jerk reactions, unnecessary aggressive accusations, fundamentalist attitudes towards what should or should not be leave little room for sensible debate and discourse.
Maybe before typing some people should spend a little time with a punching ball or go jogging or even meditate so that when they involve themselves in these forums their aggression has dissipated to the point that they have something sensible, logical and solution oriented to say.
The world is shitty enough as it is and we as musicians and engineers should stick together...

Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
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O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
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O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
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O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

[fmr]

OK, enough of this sterile discussion. This thread is about Bazille (and the co-related Berlin Modular). Urs, I remember you posted a couple of months ago, that plans regarding Berlin Modular had changed, and it will be quite different from what was initially planned. Can you update us on that?

[pdxindy]

Bazille Happy...

http://draigathar.org/sounds/bazille04.wav

[Urs]

OK, enough of this sterile discussion. This thread is about Bazille (and the co-related Berlin Modular). Urs, I remember you posted a couple of months ago, that plans regarding Berlin Modular had changed, and it will be quite different from what was initially planned. Can you update us on that?

Here's a quick run down of Berlin Modular's conceptual history:

Part 1: The original plan, long time before this thread:

Berlin Modular was going to be a modular synth with a fixed set of modules (like ACE but twice as much stuff). The user interface would allow to swap the whole engine for different "flavours" such as Moogish or Korgish.

Part 2: Over the years, and when this thread first was conceived:

In an experiment I created an audio rate modular FM/PD oscillator and stuffed it into a "little" synth frame - Bazille! Taking the Bazille experience into account Berlin Modular changed conceptually. Instead of doing different flavours within one plugin, we'd do 3 distinct synths with different capabilities. Before we get there, we release a smaller version of the classical subtractive modular. That's ACE. The price of ACE would be fully deductable from the final Berlin Modular package. As ACE is cpu hungry and a bit of bait, we'll make it really affordable.

Part 3: More years came about, ACE turned out to be a solid product, we got other issues to deal with, things were resting but Bazille gained a strong following:

Based on experience and user feedback with Bazille, ACE and now Diva, yet another concept gained recognition ad u-he headquarters. Instead of doing 3 different synths with different capabilities or 1 synth with 3 different flavours, Berlin Modular would become a modular synth with a fixed number of modules, but the modules could be swapped out to be *anything*. So Berlin Modular would become a conceptual marriage of Diva (swap individual flavours of modules, or even type of module as seen in Diva's fx section) with modular style patching like ACE & Bazille. It would be like a virtual Eurorack modular where you can construct your own synth out of a number of available types of modules. We envision 8-10 types of modules and 8 free slots in the plugin.

In the meantime, just like ACE, we would release Bazille as its own product and make its price (or part thereof) deductible towards Berlin Modular - if ever finished

- Urs