A new competitor to Uhe Diva has arived!!!

[pdxindy]

Talking of monophonic, as already said, they got to have a reason for it. Otherwise i would not know why one would implement such a restriction. It doesn't seem logical at all, as the major advantage of software is that it is only restricted by calculation power. I guess it is quite a CPU hog, even being monophonic.

In one of the NI marketing blurbs it mentions that it is easy on the CPU... (whatever that means)

I think it is Monophonic so it can be claimed to be the most accurate Minimoog model.

[chk071]

I think it is Monophonic so it can be claimed to be the most accurate Minimoog model.

Yeah, i guess so too then. Time will tell.

[hakey]

I think it is Monophonic so it can be claimed to be the most accurate Minimoog model.

If accuracy was the goal then why include a switchable bandpass filter mode, adjustable envelope curves, or patch memory?

[jalcide]

Everything that as an end result uses DSP blocks (and in digital world, that's EVERYTHING), is a DSP approach.

Okay, we're just getting caught up in semantics, now. Instead of phrasing it as "DSP-based vs circuit-modelling," or even using the wish-washy word "circuit," let's just call it "voltage-modelling." Lol. There is no sneaky wordsmith-ing around that; it either does it, or it not.

It is not impossible to emulate a capacitor discarge in Reaktor Core. In fact, I'm pretty confident that's exactly what was done for Monark.

Oh, sure, if by "emulate" you mean using math to calculate the duration of a discharge and then applying that to the Decay of a ADSR envelope. But if you mean it's creating a whole mini system inside Reaktor that all of sudden starts modelling voltages like Softube's SPICE system -- there's just no way it's doing that. Occums razor: the simplest answer is likely the one. If it's made in Reaktor, it's using Reaktor's tools, not inventing a whole new framework using thousands of little math nodes (which is probably not even possible).

[Frantz]

bright and aggressive are two separate things

Yes, I know. If I recall correctly, Diva is currently modeled on Hans Zimmer's bright Minimoog. Urs is now talking about modeling an aggressive Minimoog. I am just stating my preference that Urs model an average Minimoog next instead of an unusual one.

[pdxindy]

I think it is Monophonic so it can be claimed to be the most accurate Minimoog model.

If accuracy was the goal then why include a switchable bandpass filter mode, adjustable envelope curves, or patch memory?

Hellifiknow...

[Echoes in the Attic]

How do you disagree?
What exactly is not absolutely stupid about a monophonic VSTi-synth?

I just have nothing against that decision, for authenticity.

Authenticity? I thought it was supposed to be revolutionary? I don't think it can be both revolutionary and completely authentic, they are pretty much opposite.

I also don't think one synth can rule any other synths if it can't play chords.

revolution means a turn in the wheel. not reinventing it

I can't even tell what side of the argument you are on with that comment. It sounds like you are in disagreement with me, however reinventing the wheel is precisely what NI is doing when they adhere to the technological shortcomings of the days of monophonic synths. So I guess we're in agreement it's not very revolutionary then eh?

As for your weird definition, let's be more accurate, just for fun:

rev·o·lu·tion·ar·y
[rev-uh-loo-shuh-ner-ee] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural rev·o·lu·tion·ar·ies.
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, characterized by, or of the nature of a revolution, or a sudden, complete, or marked change: a revolutionary junta.
2. radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles, etc.: a revolutionary discovery.

[hakey]

Oh, sure, if by "emulate" you mean using math to calculate the duration of a discharge and then applying that to the Decay of a ADSR envelope. But if you mean it's creating a whole mini system inside Reaktor that all of sudden starts modelling voltages like Softube's SPICE system -- there's just no way it's doing that.

Afaik, doing maths (transfer functions) to calculate the duration of a capacitor discharge or whatever is exactly how SPICE works.

It certainly isn't an ideal white box model in which everything about the state of the system being modelled is known, right down to the quantum spin of the last atom.

Rather, like all supposedly white box simulations, it's a grey box model comprised of sub units of black boxes.

[jalcide]

It is not impossible to emulate a capacitor discarge in Reaktor Core. In fact, I'm pretty confident that's exactly what was done for Monark.

iirc, there was an early ensemble that implemented Newtonian laws of motion to model a bouncing ball, with parameters to change the strength of gravity and the elasticity of the ball.

No reason why other laws of physics couldn't also be modelled.

Interesting. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. But, using math to bounce a UI element is trivial compared to maintaining a voltage-oriented metaphor, for a working circuit, for anything on the scale of a soft synth. I mean, it would have to maintain that metaphor across so many different objects (objects that have tons of nested objects). It would be like recreating a C++ compiler inside javascript.

[hakey]

voltage-oriented metaphor?

[jalcide]

however the question was DSP versus circuit modelling.

We are talking about modelling, and in a very strict sense. That is, actual, literal voltages and current running in a true simulation. a simulation that only knows about current and voltages, and not DigitalSignalProcessing-y, sample-y stuff like 44.1 @ 24bits. That's a different universe to an encapsulated model that deals with the flow of electrical charges. That encapsulated model does end up "writing/informing/feeding" a DSP method, of course. But we're not talking about that part, we're talking about the encapsulated part.

What part of modelling or simulating the signals within an analog circuit in the digital sginal domain do you think is not included in the realm of 'digital signal processing'?

The part that's dealing with actual voltages. But since we're determined to confuse this issue and call "DSP" the umbrella category of all "music stuff on a computer," then nothing. Lol. You can choose which one depending on how far down the intellectual rabbit hole you wish to dive.

[asozial0]

How do you disagree?
What exactly is not absolutely stupid about a monophonic VSTi-synth?

I just have nothing against that decision, for authenticity.

Authenticity? I thought it was supposed to be revolutionary? I don't think it can be both revolutionary and completely authentic, they are pretty much opposite.

I also don't think one synth can rule any other synths if it can't play chords.

revolution means a turn in the wheel. not reinventing it

I can't even tell what side of the argument you are on with that comment. It sounds like you are in disagreement with me, however reinventing the wheel is precisely what NI is doing when they adhere to the technological shortcomings of the days of monophonic synths. So I guess we're in agreement it's not very revolutionary then eh?

As for your weird definition, let's be more accurate, just for fun:

rev·o·lu·tion·ar·y
[rev-uh-loo-shuh-ner-ee] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural rev·o·lu·tion·ar·ies.
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, characterized by, or of the nature of a revolution, or a sudden, complete, or marked change: a revolutionary junta.
2. radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles, etc.: a revolutionary discovery.

i wasnt taking sides. i dont adhere to that definition of revolution, especially since its been beaten to death since the 60s. revolution literally means a turn (i prefer to use a words root meaning rather than the contemperary interpretation) it just means that a change has happened. revolution doesnt mean huge sudden change, because with enough turns/clicks, the wheel ends up in the exact same position (as all revolutions do). the word revolution is so loaded that it drives people to insane conclusions - just look at the reaction that one line of marketing has caused. idc what NI has labeled it, if it sounds FRESH and NEW, im in

[pdxindy]

also one thing i think i will like in monark is the noise generator...seems phat and whispering smooth in those critical 8-14k frequencies (which are a bit too excited and hissy in diva's noise gen).the noise sounds good modulated and seems to mix well with the oscillators the way i love and remember from my brief experience with a moog source .

As a side note... Bazille is (imo) unmatched for noise and shaping it and the way it blends with the osc's and becomes integrated in organic sounding ways.

[hakey]

it sounds FRESH and NEW

unlike you atraf11

[pdxindy]

i dont adhere to that definition of revolution

I don't adhere to your meaning of 'don't'. I take don't to mean 'enthusiastically'. So yes, you are enthusiastically agreeing with Echoes posted definition.