Korg CX-3 and clonewheel organs thread

[lfm]

I got the CX-3 v2 a couple of weeks ago - and is collecting information and tools to simplify manage program patches etc.

Started here
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=378313

investigating to make some kind of tool to manage program parameters that I want in all programs, not having to wear down control panel buttons for stuff I want everywhere.

I'll post a link to this tool when it's ready in it's first form.

And there seems to be some fellow KVRians that share the love for hammond originals and clones. So not to clutter developers forum anymore - I continue here.

Feel free to contribute.


Sharing some more links with tips using with real leslie:
http://clonewheel.ashbysolutions.com/cx-3fix.html

Try the B3 patch by Matthiola att the bottom - so nice:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthread ... /Korg_CX_3

Had som really good advice for my purchase here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 12#5288312


That's a start anyway....

[AdmiralQuality]

One of those fellow CX-3 lovers would be me!

Here's how I had mine set up a few years ago. I'd use a DX-7 underneath it because it has a nice flat top with no knobs sticking up, so I could get it as close as possible to the underside of the CX-3.



I've since parted with the DX-7 but have an Ensoniq ESQ-1 that is similar in shape. Both old keyboards also have a very nice semi-weighted action that's similar to the feel of the CX-3.

I was playing the CX-3 through a real Leslie 145 with pre-amp pedal for a while. Wow, did THAT ever sound good! By the way, that ashbysolutions page of CX-3 tricks suggests not using the "pre amp" setting with a real Leslie but I would STRONGLY disagree. If you don't there's too much high end rolled off before it gets to the Leslie. But that page also mentioned something about using an ART pre-amp, so I'm not sure if they were using the proper pre-amp for a Leslie which produces a VERY hot output, much hotter than the ART pre-amps will make (I know because I tried replacing the Leslie pre-amp pedal with an ART Tube MP and even at maximum output gain you could barely hear the organ at all.)

With the CX-3 in "pre amp" mode, and run through a real Leslie, I was totally achieving that classic Hammond growl that was variable with the position of the swell pedal. If you closed your eyes you'd never know I was playing a clonewheel.

I almost built the Leslie pre-amp pedal into the inside of my CX-3 as I didn't like how much floor space it took up. That would have been quite a mod. I had it all planned out, then got poor and had to part with the Leslie. (Probably for the best as modifying my CX-3 like that might have hurt its resale value.)

I've also found that in a pinch, running the CX-3 through a Fender "blackface" amp like a Twin Reverb Reissue can do a lot to make it sound more realistic. And even though it's not stereo, those open backed amps create a kind of "swirl" that sounds like stereo anyway -- particularly the 2 speaker models like the Twin. (I've also considered maybe getting two Deluxe Reverbs so it could be true stereo. Would be easier to lug too as a Twin is back breaking. More expensive though. But for now I can't afford either option so it'll be a while before I'm gigging with this rig again.)

[lfm]

Nice setup, thanks for sharing.

First I thought you'd use DX7 as the lower manual for CX-3 as well. When I read specs for CX-3 I almost could't believe how flexible they did it - using split or external midi keyboard etc.

But the chip is still in Kronos workstation and little bit different approach I guess.

Was a bit surpriced that Fender amp would be the choice, but you live and learn, don't you. I would have guessed it was too clean.

I am now experimenting with a couple of tube amps - Marshall JMP-1 rack mount and Koch Studiotone.

I will see if I could make it growl being after the leslie sim, or if I will get a separate leslie sim like the Ventilator pedal and run from CX-3 preamp->tube amp->leslie sim. And I got some other suggestions for pedals from KVRians in my purchase thread link above - that might be worth trying.

I think mono is better than the full stereo image that B4 do for recording. I had to use Waves S1 plugin to narrow stereo field down to about 11-14 o'clock or something. CX-3 leslie is flexible having the distance and spread of mikes making it just right - not occupying the entire stereo field.

We'll see...

[AdmiralQuality]

Nice setup, thanks for sharing.

First I thought you'd use DX7 as the lower manual for CX-3 as well. When I read specs for CX-3 I almost could't believe how flexible they did it - using split or external midi keyboard etc.

Yeah, I can't play split organ. I need both manuals. I always feel like I'm getting ripped off when I see guys playing their Nords with single manuals.

But the chip is still in Kronos workstation and little bit different approach I guess.

Was a bit surpriced that Fender amp would be the choice, but you live and learn, don't you. I would have guessed it was too clean.

When I ran it through a Fender blackface amp, which, yes, are quite clean, I'd still use the CX-3's Leslie simulator so the growl would come from there. Just something about the real tube amp would somehow make it sound that much more authentic.

I am now experimenting with a couple of tube amps - Marshall JMP-1 rack mount and Koch Studiotone.

I will see if I could make it growl being after the leslie sim,

That's exactly the issue, I don't think you can convincingly add the growl after the Leslie (as the Leslie imparts a lot of amplitude modulation to the signal as well, so the growl distortion will modulate as well which I don't think will sound authentic).

You can try though. Let us know how it works.

or if I will get a separate leslie sim like the Ventilator pedal and run from CX-3 preamp->tube amp->leslie sim. And I got some other suggestions for pedals from KVRians in my purchase thread link above - that might be worth trying.

I think mono is better than the full stereo image that B4 do for recording. I had to use Waves S1 plugin to narrow stereo field down to about 11-14 o'clock or something. CX-3 leslie is flexible having the distance and spread of mikes making it just right - not occupying the entire stereo field.

We'll see...

Yes. And by increasing the mic distance parameter you will reduce the AM effect, which might be a good idea for your plan above.

Here's my new one, with my Ensoniq ESQ-1 underneath it. (Please forgive my clothes next to it, I'm pretty cramped in here.)



If I can find a wood shop I can borrow and spare a few $100 of budget for materials and a MIDI controller keyboard I plan to build a lower manual that will fit right under it and look more like a real organ.

There's one other option I'm aware of. Apparently there was a clonewheel made in Brasil called a Ventura TX-5 and it had a detachable lower manual called a TX-5 LM that apparently almost perfectly fits the CX-3. Details on this page from one of their dealers. http://venturakeyboards.wordpress.com/2 ... -korg-cx3/ I'm sure it's deleted now but if anybody has one they'd consider selling, please get in touch with me: aq (AT) admiralquality.com

[lfm]

It looks really neat with these double manuals - and still not close to a B3 in weight.

It's a bit surprising that vendors does not plan their equipment to fit like that.

On the other hand it's unusual to be that generous in design as CX-3, with double engines inside.

The only thing I would have changed is to make certain parts Global setting, and each program could use that global or override it within local setting.

I might post some audio samples from tube amp experiments.

[AdmiralQuality]

It looks really neat with these double manuals - and still not close to a B3 in weight.

Yeah. A B3 is like 450 lbs. One big guy on every corner and it's STILL almost too heavy to lift!

It's a bit surprising that vendors does not plan their equipment to fit like that.

On the other hand it's unusual to be that generous in design as CX-3, with double engines inside.

The only thing I would have changed is to make certain parts Global setting, and each program could use that global or override it within local setting.

I might post some audio samples from tube amp experiments.

There'a a BX-3, but wow they're expensive and would be a lot harder to lug around and fit in the car...


(I'd really like those pitch and mod wheels on it though!)

The splitting apart into two makes a LOT of sense. The new Hammond XK3c does that, but then they also waste another octave of keyboard space duplicating the preset keys which is the ONE feature of the real B3 that I'd be happy to do without. So they're unnecessarily wide. (Though I must admit they look cool and at least they also have the controls all in the right places. Kinda.)





I'm not sure what you mean regarding the global settings. The global settings describe how it'll interface with its peripherals (MIDI settings, etc), and the program settings describe the sound of each "patch" (keyclick, amp model, reverb model, etc). Works for me.

But when I'm using it live I only ever use ONE program. I set the drawbars to all out in the program memory so I can switch to that with the DRAWBAR PRESET button, essentially replacing the preset (reverse color) keys. And then I can switch quickly back to whatever real drawbar settings I have.

And minor things like reverb level and EQ can be tweaked with the knobs on the far left. (Though I was VERY disappointed to just now discover that these knobs aren't MIDI encoded! I was hoping to control VB3's amp and reverb parameters with them but nope!)

[lfm]

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the global settings. The global settings describe how it'll interface with its peripherals (MIDI settings, etc), and the program settings describe the sound of each "patch" (keyclick, amp model, reverb model, etc). Works for me.

But when I'm using it live I only ever use ONE program. I set the drawbars to all out in the program memory so I can switch to that with the DRAWBAR PRESET button, essentially replacing the preset (reverse color) keys. And then I can switch quickly back to whatever real drawbar settings I have.

And minor things like reverb level and EQ can be tweaked with the knobs on the far left. (Though I was VERY disappointed to just now discover that these knobs aren't MIDI encoded! I was hoping to control VB3's amp and reverb parameters with them but nope!)

I was just thinking of my little patching project - that came along because I have to edit every patch for every part - including a dozen leslie settings. Speedup and speeddown transition time is nothing I change by program - to mention something.

Like many things are implemented in software having a general setting in preferences - and each specific project can override those, but only if you want to.

So all parameters have the current settings it has now - and another one called "use global setting". So if not bothering with doing different than global - you can just tweak parameters that is needed for that program.

A little bit like you mention that drawbar selection could be from preset - or override with the physical drawbars - that for each manual. That is very cool.

[AdmiralQuality]

There is a built in patch copy function you know.

And again, the global parameters don't overlap with the program parameters. The globals are stuff that you'll obviously want the same all the time, like the MIDI and controller setups. Program parameters are sound stuff.

[AdmiralQuality]

A little bit like you mention that drawbar selection could be from preset - or override with the physical drawbars - that for each manual. That is very cool.

That's how a real Hammond works. The B and Bb keys on the preset (reverse color) keys set the manual between the two different sets of drawbars. (The Korg and all the other clonewheels only have one set of drawbars so we don't really have that function.) And all the remaining preset keys below the B and Bb set that manual to various hard-wired presets (you could change these by wiring in the back of the Hammond). Most of these other presets sounded notoriously BAD so aren't much use. But the one setting I use all the time is all drawbars out, and rather than have to pull the drawbars out manually, then rapidly try to put them back where they were, I set the "DRAWBAR PRESET" switch to go to all out. So I can switch between the real drawbars setting, and all stops out, just by hitting the grey drawbar switches on the left (which are roughly where the reverse color preset keys would have been anyway).

Another bug in the CX-3 is that the upper manual only gets percussion if it's set on "DRAWBAR 2" or "DRAWBAR PRESET". If you set it to "DRAWBAR 1" the percussion goes away, which is wrong and something we have to avoid doing.

(And of course the lower manual NEVER has percussion, but that's correct for modelling a real Hammond.)

I'm actually working on this right now so my memory is coming back for all this stuff. I've also been trying to get the lower manual to merge its controllers into the MIDI output, but haven't been having any luck.

Oh well, I still love this thing.

One thing I'm surprised at is that after doing the firmware update, all the patches (programs) are messed up and useless. For example, percussion in SOFT mode doesn't happen at all! For a while I thought maybe something was broken! Also the Leslie is going fast even when it should be slow. So I'm having to go through every program parameter and reset it from scratch.

Once I do that for one program, I'll copy it to all others. But again, I really only ever use one program. I don't want to change keyclick or percussion levels and times between songs. I want a Hammon organ that behaves one way, ALL the time. If it only had one program slot I'd be perfectly happy!

[lfm]

There is a built in patch copy function you know.

And again, the global parameters don't overlap with the program parameters. The globals are stuff that you'll obviously want the same all the time, like the MIDI and controller setups. Program parameters are sound stuff.

I guess once you find the growl that give you goosebumps - you want nothing else. One program is enough

But if wanting to go through and have just leslie and percussion settings right, but the rest intact - it's another story.

Sometimes the little more fluity sound is better, sometimes full church organ - and everything in between.

Percussion is an excellent example - there is a on/off in programs if to use it or not, you don't have to sett everything to off regarding percussion settings. That's clever.

But CX-3 is amazing as it is - nothing I regret about getting it.

[AdmiralQuality]

There is a built in patch copy function you know.

And again, the global parameters don't overlap with the program parameters. The globals are stuff that you'll obviously want the same all the time, like the MIDI and controller setups. Program parameters are sound stuff.

I guess once you find the growl that give you goosebumps - you want nothing else. One program is enough

Well actually I spoke too soon. I need two programs. One that's set to PRE AMP that disables the Leslie and Amp sim for running through a real Leslie that provides its own growl, and one with fake Leslie built in for running through PA or an amp.

And maybe I could see doing one more for a really dirty "Chest Fever" kind of sound. So okay... 3 programs!

But if wanting to go through and have just leslie and percussion settings right, but the rest intact - it's another story.

Sometimes the little more fluity sound is better, sometimes full church organ - and everything in between.

Percussion is an excellent example - there is a on/off in programs if to use it or not, you don't have to sett everything to off regarding percussion settings. That's clever.

But CX-3 is amazing as it is - nothing I regret about getting it.

Nah, I don't want to change programs to change percussion settings. I often change them several times during a song anyway. I want to reach up on the right hand side and deal with the 4 percussion switches just like a real Hammond. (This way, someday when I get to play a real one I'll be in my element and will intuitively know where I want things set. I don't want to get lazy from using the programs, and I also don't want to be restricted by it. I'd rather have all the happy accidents as if it was a real Hammond.)

I am finding lots of bugs as I go through it, and the fact I'm having to build a decent default program from scratch is disappointing. (Again, it might have something to do with me having upgraded its firmware from 2.00 to 2.01 and resetting it to factory defaults -- but I'd have assumed those factory defaults would actually be USEABLE. They're not!)

No big deal though. Once I get my default program worked out it'll be 100% to my personal taste.

But yeah, you don't really need your sysex editor program you're writing. It's got a patch copy function built in (oddly, in the global menu).

[lfm]

Nah, I don't want to change programs to change percussion settings. I often change them several times during a song anyway. I want to reach up on the right hand side and deal with the 4 percussion switches just like a real Hammond. (This way, someday when I get to play a real one I'll be in my element and will intuitively know where I want things set. I don't want to get lazy from using the programs, and I also don't want to be restricted by it. I'd rather have all the happy accidents as if it was a real Hammond.)

I am finding lots of bugs as I go through it, and the fact I'm having to build a decent default program from scratch is disappointing. (Again, it might have something to do with me having upgraded its firmware from 2.00 to 2.01 and resetting it to factory defaults -- but I'd have assumed those factory defaults would actually be USEABLE. They're not!)

No big deal though. Once I get my default program worked out it'll be 100% to my personal taste.

But yeah, you don't really need your sysex editor program you're writing. It's got a patch copy function built in (oddly, in the global menu).

But there are still a handful of parameters for percussion only, decay this and delay that etc for when osft is on or off. The buttons are ok to fiddle with - soft on/off, 3rd on/off etc for each program you edit.

Keyclick, percussion and leslie is pretty much the same I want for any program. That is what my patch utility will put there for all 128 programs.

That will be a good timesaver.

Then I fiddle with drawbars most of all, and those are easy to copy from physical ones into patches. Some chorus/vibrato. From there I will get my list of sounds I like - without going trhough 30 parameters for each program.

And I haven't even started looking at what the Ex-stuff offer in coolness- if anything.

[earlevel]

I will see if I could make it growl being after the leslie sim, or if I will get a separate leslie sim like the Ventilator pedal and run from CX-3 preamp->tube amp->leslie sim.

Do get the Ventilator. It's such an improvement over the built-in sim that it took me from playing the CX-3 once in a while to my staple instrument. Not only is it a richer and more satisfying emulation, but the built-in Leslie is horrible when spinning up with a lot of key-click or percussion. (You'll need to set your organ presets to "preamp".)

I also added a Behringer Vintage Tube Monster (Tube Screamer clone) in front of it. The Ventilator overdrive is pretty good, but if you want the really heavy grind, you'll want tube distortion. (You'll want to change the AX7 out for something with less gain though, otherwise the useful control range will be very limited.)

With the CX-3 and the Ventilator, I have no problem getting the organ tones of some of my favorite albums.

Also, consider whether you need to control the Leslie emulation speed via MIDI. That is, one cool thing about a B3 clone is that you can record your MIDI performance, then go back later and change your organ tone—if so, you'd like to keep your performance of the speed pedal too. Here's how I solved it:

http://www.earlevel.com/main/2013/02/16 ... -mint-tin/

[lfm]

Do get the Ventilator. It's such an improvement over the built-in sim that it took me from playing the CX-3 once in a while to my staple instrument. Not only is it a richer and more satisfying emulation, but the built-in Leslie is horrible when spinning up with a lot of key-click or percussion. (You'll need to set your organ presets to "preamp".)

I also added a Behringer Vintage Tube Monster (Tube Screamer clone) in front of it. The Ventilator overdrive is pretty good, but if you want the really heavy grind, you'll want tube distortion. (You'll want to change the AX7 out for something with less gain though, otherwise the useful control range will be very limited.)

With the CX-3 and the Ventilator, I have no problem getting the organ tones of some of my favorite albums.

Also, consider whether you need to control the Leslie emulation speed via MIDI. That is, one cool thing about a B3 clone is that you can record your MIDI performance, then go back later and change your organ tone—if so, you'd like to keep your performance of the speed pedal too. Here's how I solved it:

http://www.earlevel.com/main/2013/02/16 ... -mint-tin/

Really good catch there on the Ventilator midi issue - thank you. I never thought about that you loose midi switching functionality using it.

One way could be to step in realtime when doing rendering the CX-3 on to a track. I will do that pretty early in the recording process - not needing to have CX-3 running all the time while mixing.

Tube amps I got a couple that I will try out. First as is, just running leslie out and see what I get. Most probably I will get Ventilator and the midi fix you made - seems like a good permanent solution.

Did you have direct contact with Neo people about this?

I also looked at the XILS Lab plugin for LX122 Premium - but I had no browser that worked in their shop. And haven't tried how good it really is. Many tried - Native Instruments, GSi and not everybody is happy.

[earlevel]

Did you have direct contact with Neo people about this?

I detailed this issue online a year and half ago, but never follow up by contacting Neo Instruments. The thing that turned me off was the fact that their English contacts page on their website is entirely in German. To me, that signaled that they weren't too serious about having a conversation with users. But I'll make a point of at least pointing them to my web article about the issue.

Really, it would the slightest of effort from them to at at least support a spst switch/relay. Sure, built-in MIDI switching would be best (and cheapest), but the annoying part is the need for two switches to just flip fast/slow.

As for amps, I thought about trying various amp sims (I'm a former Line 6 engineer, just to let you know that I do take amp sims seriously), and I have recorded with a Hammond XK2 -> POD XT -> Leslie 122 before. But so far, I've been happy enough with just the Ventilator (and tube distortion pedal).

I haven't tried any Leslie-sim plug-ins.

Hey, might as well give an idea of past history and the kind of sound I'm after, since what sounds good to me isn't everyone's idea of authentic...my first organ was a Farfisa—never took it out...replaced by an M3—took it out jamming a few times, no Leslie...replaced by a Univox Organizer, through a flanger pedal briefly till I got a Leslie 122 enhanced with a Dynaco tube amp and JBL woofer. This was my setup in my progrock-band days ("Chakra"). The Organizer had a useless key-click emulation and no chorus, so I couldn't get the Keith Emerson sound I coveted, but I could get a nice grind and it was a big sound—probably more like the better organ sounds of Tony Banks than Emerson.

The addition of the Ventilator with the CX-3 definitely gets me into the KE sound domain without further work, just tweaking the CX-3 parameters. So much so that I'm enjoying a throw-back period where I'm collaborating with my old bandmate and co-writer, and concentrating on the old instruments sounds I grew up with—"Hammond", piano, strings (and melotron sim, but curse gforce for not have a 64-bit version out yet—I've moved on without them, and no 'tron till I need it badly enough to go elsewhere, or they catch up), and mono-synth (leads, maybe bass, but no synth pads other than strings so far).