One-Synth-Challenge 51: Aalto and Aalto Solo - Submissions and gossip

[evo2slo]

any reasoning behind dithering from 24bit to 16? Why not just leave at 24?

Saving bandwidth/disk space for listeners? Unless you've got a tremendous dynamic range, a 24 bit range for a presentation format is a waste of resources.

Thanks farlukar. That makes sense then when wav is the final format and intended for distribution that way, but what if mp3 is the final format? Any reason to convert to 16bit if distributing as an mp3?

In the final stretch! Thanks to bjporter and madrona labs for the extra motivation! Really like that Aalto t-shirt design.

[V'ger]

any reasoning behind dithering from 24bit to 16? Why not just leave at 24?

Saving bandwidth/disk space for listeners? Unless you've got a tremendous dynamic range, a 24 bit range for a presentation format is a waste of resources.

But dynamic range is what we are after, no?

[bzur]

Finally, with some workarounds for the Cubase issues, I've come up with this quick preview:

http://soundcloud.com/bzur/bzur-machines-osc-kvr-osc-51
Hope to make it more enjoyable in the next days!

Thanks to bjporter suggestion, I've used Cubase 6.5 x32 (instead of x64), and the corresponding Aalto version.

Anyway, I experienced some issues again: when I reopen the project after saving and closing Cubase, no sound at all and vst performance at 100%.

The problem disappears unselecting the "Multi processing" option on Cubase, which makes Aalto pretty unusable (peaks on vst performance). Luckily, once you set again the Multi Processing option, everything goes well.

[Gamma-UT]

Thanks farlukar. That makes sense then when wav is the final format and intended for distribution that way, but what if mp3 is the final format? Any reason to convert to 16bit if distributing as an mp3?

It's a big "it depends". You can even encode from sample rates higher than 44.1kHz because the MP3 format does not care about the source sample rate - it just stores information about frequency bands in the audio range - and uses as many bits as it can within the bitrate limit to determine how loud each band needs to be at any one time.

An MP3 encoder should take a 24bit file and work on that directly but there is a danger that a particular implementation may just truncate the words to 16bit, which will in general be worse than dithering it down to 16bit. But it might not be worse.

I often wonder whether dithering makes sense for MP3 because of the way it works but like the sample rate and bit-depth issue, it will probably depend on the material. And the difference is likely to be only barely audible.

In any event, the downgrade that Soundcloud streaming inflicts will be more noticeable than swapping 16 for 24bit.

[farlukar]

^ This.
You can easily test its usefulness of course. Render to a 24bit file, render to a 16 bit file, invert one and add. Chances are the only thing left is dithering/quantization noise.

But dynamic range is what we are after, no?

Well, yes... but 16bits audio already gives you a theoretical dynamic range of 96dB. So unless you're catering to the 0.001% of the population with golden ears that can be bothered by quantization noise in a tiny -60dB part in a bit of music, a 24bits format is just 50% overhead.
It makes sense for recording external sources, but in a one-synth-challenge it's all inside the box

[bjporter]

Finally, with some workarounds for the Cubase issues, I've come up with this quick preview:

That is a strange issue indeed you had there. What ASIO drivers were you using?

btw Nice Job

[evo2slo]

Thanks farlukar. That makes sense then when wav is the final format and intended for distribution that way, but what if mp3 is the final format? Any reason to convert to 16bit if distributing as an mp3?

It's a big "it depends". You can even encode from sample rates higher than 44.1kHz because the MP3 format does not care about the source sample rate - it just stores information about frequency bands in the audio range - and uses as many bits as it can within the bitrate limit to determine how loud each band needs to be at any one time.

An MP3 encoder should take a 24bit file and work on that directly but there is a danger that a particular implementation may just truncate the words to 16bit, which will in general be worse than dithering it down to 16bit. But it might not be worse.

I often wonder whether dithering makes sense for MP3 because of the way it works but like the sample rate and bit-depth issue, it will probably depend on the material. And the difference is likely to be only barely audible.

In any event, the downgrade that Soundcloud streaming inflicts will be more noticeable than swapping 16 for 24bit.

Thanks for the detailed explanation Gamma. I think I'll just stick to 24/48

Nice to have you back bzur! Cubase 7 32bit mac I'm also getting the same issue with the vst performance meter stuck at 100% and no sound. For me it's not happening at startup but each time I turn off an instance of Aalto, which I am doing for every bounce because I can only have one instance turned on at a time at the low buffer settings I'm using. I had been restarting after each bounce but discovered a strange workaround that by turning on one other instance of Aalto before turning off the other one I'm no longer getting freezes.

Craaaaaazzzzyyyyyyyyy

... but I do love this synth. Such a great interface and unique sound.

[bzur]

Finally, with some workarounds for the Cubase issues, I've come up with this quick preview:

That is a strange issue indeed you had there. What ASIO drivers were you using?

btw Nice Job

Focusrite Saffire ASIO drivers

[jasinski]

@Jasinski, any reasoning behind dithering from 24bit to 16? Why not just leave at 24?

My understanding is that bit rate is mostly responsible for dB spectrum, how loud and quiet things can be detected without clipping or being so quiet they aren't audible. Most MP3s are going to be 16bit. I'm almost positive that Soundclouds converters are only 16 bit. In this case and you don't have control over the encoding or decoding process during playback or the audio interface the listener is using to hear your stufff. All of which could be 16 bit. So your 24 bit audio is going to have quantization noise when converted 'raw' in this scenario, which is bad.

Dithering your file down to 16 bit before encoding to MP3 using software designed to do it (with fancy algorithms) means you are in control of adding ear-friendly, 'good' noise, which our ears are actually like hearing.

Here's a good general article on dithering
http://www.pcrecording.com/dither.htm


And this guy says that found that if you can ensure the encoding, decoding, and audio interface playback all stay at 24 bit, then that will sound better. But in most cases (especially for audio on the web) I don't think you can control those variables.
http://www.gersic.com/blog.php?id=54

Also, I don't think uploading high kbs mp3s to soundcloud is optimal as they downgrade the kbs to 128 for their webplayer. That means your original audio is being encoding 2x: to mp3 and then re-encoding that mp3 to a worse mp3.

[evo2slo]

So some mp3 converters automatically chop the wav to 16bit before compressing the mp3 - in which case it's best to dither it yourself before converting, and others leave it as is - in which case it's best to use a 24bit wav.

Got it!

[evo2slo]

evo2slo presents
All Aboard the Aalto Train

28 instances Aalto Solo

Host: Cubase 7

Plugs:
Dan Klingler 3D Binaural Spatializer
Steinberg Channel Strip, Amp Sim, Delay, Reverb, Maximizer
Voxengo Tube Amp, Span
FXpansion DCAM FreeComp
Plugin Alliance bx_cleansweep
TT Dynamic Range Meter
Apogee UV22HR

https://soundcloud.com/evo2slo/evo2slo- ... -the-aalto

Download is 16bit wav
chugga chugga chugga chugga.. WOOO WOOOOOO

[ricler]

Hi, this is my tribute this month:

Ricler - Macabre dance

Host: "Sibelius 7" (other tools used: "EnergyXT 2.7" in ReWire mode with Sibelius for pre-mixing, "Studio One 2" for mixing and "Ocenaudio" for monitoring).

15 instances of Aalto Solo (Beat Special Edition).

Effects: 14 - Marvel GEQ (1), MEqualizer (1), MAutopan (3), AUParametricEQ (1), LoudMax (2), Independence FX (2), MStereoExpander (3), Mixverb (1).

Tempo: around 95, Key: B minor.

http://soundcloud.com/richard-clermont/ ... abre-dance

The cover is from a painting by Eric BADOUD entitled "DANSE MACABRE".

You can also watch a video clip that I edited for this music track:



Enjoy!

[z.prime]

My entry for the month:

z.prime - Leeches

I don't know how to describe this track... it's different, hope you like it.

It was a challenge for my CPU; pegged at ~80%, teetering on pops and clicks...

TT Dynamic Range: 9

Plugins used:

Aalto Solo (BEAT Edition) - 20 instances
TDR Feedback Compressor
epicVerb
mgTempoDelay
ReaComp
presenceeq
ReaXcomp
ReaEQ
ThrillseekerXTC
Limiter No6
midiChords
midiPolyphony
ReaControlMIDI
midi_transpose

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.com/z_prime/z-prime-leeches

[Moldavsky]

Hello friends, finally, phew!

I've had lots of struggles: constant crushes, no sound, no playback, etc. IDK what is the reason: host, the synth, or the system - probably the last. Thus, I had to let it be as it is. Anyway, it's been a great pleasure to use Aalto Solo. In my opinion, the interface is the best in terms of simplicity and usability I've seen so far, though I'm not so experienced on that matter. Have you noticed the interface is scalable, awesome?!

Host: Ableton Live 9 and Samplitude Music Studio 2013. Everything was done in Live, but due constant crashes and no playback, I had to bounce audio steams and finish up the track in Music Studio. No fooling with the audio, only some minor touches.

Aalto: 25 instances (whoops, didn't think it was so many)

FX:

Live: EQ Three, EQ Eight, Compressor, Auto Pan, Filter Delay.

MS2013: Compressor, eFX_StereoDelay, Stereo Enhancer.

free: CamelCrusher, DCAMFreeComp, SSL LMC-1, jb_ferox, jb_send, TAL-Tube, TAL-Bitcrusher, PPD Echobox, Gater, mgTriggerGate, George Yohng's W1 Limiter, TLs_Maximizer, TB_EZQ, Minimal System Delay Studio.

Thank you bjporter and madrona labs for cheering us up!

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.com/moldavsky/moldav ... the-nomads

[Harthstein]

Hi, this is my entry for the Aalto contest:

18 instances of Aalto Solo

This synth kills my CPU
To complete this song was only possible with freezing/sampling in Ableton Live.

All Effects by Ableton Live:
- Reverb
- SimpleDelay
- Compressor/Limiter on all tracks

Big Reverb by epicVerb (Variety of Sound)

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.com/harthstein/harth ... nix-rising