8Dio Adagio Violins- Full Detailed REVIEW

[koolkeys]

I have not used the oboe library, and I'm not yet sure if I will in the future or not. So I'm not sure what the button does.

I'll be honest and say that when I looked at the description for the Oboe, I found it quite lacking. It claims to have the detail of the Adagio Strings series, but after having used the Adagio strings, I don't see it. Of course, the oboe doesn't have as much flexibility as strings, but still.

With the Adagio stuff, I don't believe the dynamics controls use the timestretch engine at all. At least there is no sign of that being the case, and there is no quality loss or even a noticeable reason to use the timestretch(though it is used for multiple other functions in the library). I will say that any library that uses the Time Machine functionality will sound MUCH better in Kontakt 5. But I don't know what benefit that would provide for dynamics.

I don't know what you were referring to as advocacy in the review, so maybe you can clarify? What is it about the library that solidified your decision to not buy as a result of the review?

I'm not asking to defend the product, but to get a better understanding of how people read the reviews I write. Obviously, it's just one man's opinion, and I've been writing and using libraries and music software for a long time. But I like to be detailed and cover what matters to people, so hopefully I've done that. I do personally like this library, though when I first used it in version 1.0, I was very disappointed. And even with my initial tests in 1.1, I wasn't exactly blown away. But while 1.1 is not perfect, it's a very good sounding library with loads of sound options.

It IS quite different though from what people may be used to. The lack of the "all in one" patch may turn some people off, for instance. But it doesn't seem to be designed with that type of playing in mind.

Questions? Comments? Let me know if I can help further, and if I find out more about the Oboe, I'll let you know.

Brent

[jancivil]

well the Adagio strings has what I take as the same 'dynamics' knob. it looks like the 8Dio way o' life leans on it. when Adagio first came out I looked at it *fairly* closely but the transitions came across as too rough in the audio demos at the time.

I'm used to a lot of keyswitches and controllers, this isn't too complex for me but I would want that bit documented as it seems to be kind of crucial. your review reports what looks like phasing out of the velocity crossfaded layers, which is just odd as the guy in the oboe demo was strong about 'we don't do this', we do this dynamics knob thingy.

I'm not interested in the oboe itself but I'm open to finding out if they're doing something novel to get realism. I thought what he got was effective but it lacks basic articulations, which I'm too skeptical about, and which raises my question re this dynamics knob. the price of that is not a lot less than the VSL extended oboe, so...

[jancivil]

advocacy in the review, so maybe you can clarify? What is it about the library that solidified your decision to not buy as a result of the review?

aside from a few cons mentioned, overall... well a lot of it reads like marketing for the product, by which I mean it sounds repeated from the company. Minor quibble, I wouldn't be too concerned if I were you. If you like it you like it

if there's any dodgy intonation... kind of a no-go for this money.

a major thing for me is knowing it's recorded wet. I can't be stuck with a room sound. I've grown used to VSL's ways and while this I think is a very sophisticated interface, it's Kontakt. All of the cute things this does, VI Pro does more elegantly I think. Then there is the statement 'it's going to be better with the K5 time stretch engine', and I'm not upgrading to Kontakt 5 right now. I use time stretch in VI Pro 2; if there is an articulation that's a loop essentially, a crescendo roll or a trill, timed dynamic samples etc, the time stretch engine really gives a result that you wouldn't know involves such an engine. Even cymbals, up to a point. So this is another area where it's hard to persuade me away from the VSL ways.

I think it's trying to do too much in one product, BUT the price isn't bad so it's something I keep up with a little bit. At some point I'm going to need to invest in strings. this isn't quite there for me I think. thanks tho.

[koolkeys]

well the Adagio strings has what I take as the same 'dynamics' knob. it looks like the 8Dio way o' life leans on it. when Adagio first came out I looked at it *fairly* closely but the transitions came across as too rough in the audio demos at the time.

The dynamics knob in Adagio(can't speak for the oboe) doesn't do anything that I can tell with the timestretch engine. Also, the dynamics knob is actually NOT the preferred method of using the libraries. It's there for additional shaping. As mentioned in the review, the dynamic bowings are the actual focus. They are what shape the notes mostly, and the dynamics/expression(volume) knobs are for additional tweaking of the envelope.

It may not have been clear in the review though that the dynamics knob is MUCH more subtle than most libraries. It's really not a major sound changer, but is supplemental. That being said, it does have some crossfading involved, though there are also some filtering and other changes going on with it.

Something else to keep in mind that the demo videos were mostly done with version 1.0 of the library. Honestly, that version was a mess in terms of consistency. The 1.1 update literally changed the library across the board to be more consistent and usable. The version being reviewed is 1.1, and the transition volumes and smoothness is FAR better in that version. I don't even know why they released the original version the way it was.

I'm used to a lot of keyswitches and controllers, this isn't too complex for me but I would want that bit documented as it seems to be kind of crucial. your review reports what looks like phasing out of the velocity crossfaded layers, which is just odd as the guy in the oboe demo was strong about 'we don't do this', we do this dynamics knob thingy.

The phasing was a minor issue, and wasn't a result of dynamic layer crossfading. It was present in a small amount of samples, but it seemed TO ME to be part of the original recordings. But also as mentioned, this is NOT necessarily unrealistic. String sections have natural phasing that takes place. The phasing I mentioned just seemed to be a little more pronounced on a few samples. But it's unrelated to the crossfading, and isn't something that happens in most of the samples.

I'm not interested in the oboe itself but I'm open to finding out if they're doing something novel to get realism. I thought what he got was effective but it lacks basic articulations, which I'm too skeptical about, and which raises my question re this dynamics knob. the price of that is not a lot less than the VSL extended oboe, so...

Well, I wish I could answer more about the oboe, but I haven't used it. So I'll reserve any comments for now. All I can say is that in the Adagio libraries, the dynamics knob is a secondary shaping device. The focus is absolutely on natural arcs of notes. The dynamic crossfading is there to help if the natural note envelopes don't do exactly what you're wanting, which does happen in some cases. But they are subtle and supplemental compared to other libraries.

Hope this helps make it at least a little more clear.

Brent

[koolkeys]

advocacy in the review, so maybe you can clarify? What is it about the library that solidified your decision to not buy as a result of the review?

aside from a few cons mentioned, overall... well a lot of it reads like marketing for the product, by which I mean it sounds repeated from the company. Minor quibble, I wouldn't be too concerned if I were you. If you like it you like it

Well, I do like it. I wouldn't lie about it if I didn't.

What I'm going to say probably sounds defensive, but it's not meant to be directed towards you. It's just kind of a "thing" that pops up sometimes.

It seems to me that every time a positive review is written, somebody comes along and claims that it sounds like marketing speak. But as somebody who has written dozens of reviews and articles for both print and web, I must say that when you like a product, that's just the way it is. In my reviews, I try to be more informative than evangelizing. Sure, much of what is there repeats what the marketing blurbs might say, but a review is not only for those who already know about the product. It's for people who may have never heard of it. It's also for people who have heard of it, but want more details. Informative and honest, mixed into one review.

I put a LOT of time into my reviews. This one is around 5,000 words. That represents literally dozens of hours of playing, writing, taking screenshots, editing, formatting, testing, researching, etc. I can assure you that while it may sound like marketing speak, not a single word there can be claimed to not be my honest opinion.

Some people believe, and not necessarily you, that reviewers are paid off in some way. Of course, those who say it have never actually proven it, but it's fun to go around saying. I don't make a dime from ProRec. Never have, and who knows if I ever will. I just write about stuff I enjoy doing, and hope it helps somebody. When all is said and done, if my honest opinion looks like marketing copy, then so be it. Sometimes when describing a product, you use the terminology they used to make sure people know what you're talking about. But I hope that it's evident that I didn't just repeat what I read somewhere. I hope that whoever reads my reviews can come away at least somewhat more informed about the product than they were before reading it. In this case, there is far more information than the website or manual will provide. Better than most magazine reviews that barely skim over the products and provide nothing in the way of useful information.

So far, the response to our articles and reviews have been overwhelmingly positive, so I take pride in that. But I STRONGLY appreciate feedback, even negative feedback. I like to know when my reviews aren't as helpful as they can possibly be. So please, by all means, anyone can let me know constructively if they think something in my reviews can be better.

With all that being said, I understand that some people will see it differently, and that's alright. Just being crystal clear on what is behind the reviews I personally do.

if there's any dodgy intonation... kind of a no-go for this money.

I wouldn't call it dodgy. I'd call it non-clinical(like VSL). A lot of libraries seem to be keeping things like this in, including LASS, Concert Strings 2 and others. It's nothing more than an inconsistency that can be apparent when played by itself. In a mix, it's not an issue at all. As mentioned regarding the phasing though, this is also something that happens naturally within a string section. Due to the nature of the fretless design on strings, and the number of players that have to get things EXACTLY right, there will be inconsistent notes. You just don't hear them in a mix. Same here. I mention these things in a review because some people WANT the clinical sound. That's why VSL is so popular(I'm a fan of VSL stuff, btw). But if you were to solo real string sections, as you probably know, these things just happen.

a major thing for me is knowing it's recorded wet. I can't be stuck with a room sound. I've grown used to VSL's ways and while this I think is a very sophisticated interface, it's Kontakt.

You have a close mic and a far mic, and a mixed perspective. As I said in the review, the church ambience is not overwhelming in any way. It's a character sound more than an ambience one. But if you don't like it, just use the close mic. Adagio sounds just fine with external reverbs though, fwiw.

All of the cute things this does, VI Pro does more elegantly I think. Then there is the statement 'it's going to be better with the K5 time stretch engine', and I'm not upgrading to Kontakt 5 right now. I use time stretch in VI Pro 2; if there is an articulation that's a loop essentially, a crescendo roll or a trill, timed dynamic samples etc, the time stretch engine really gives a result that you wouldn't know involves such an engine. Even cymbals, up to a point. So this is another area where it's hard to persuade me away from the VSL ways.

Well, the Kontakt timestretch engine is what it is. And it's a fact that the K5 engine is vastly improved. I mentioned this in the review because for somebody who doesn't have K5 yet, this may be an issue. While most articulations don't take advantage of timestretching, some things like the speed control, tempo-synced loures, etc. do sound better with it. That's a dealbreaker for some, no doubt about it.

VI Pro is a fabulous player, and honestly, I prefer what it does to most Kontakt interfaces that come with orchestral libraries. It does things that Kontakt just can't at the moment without heavy scripting. The Adagio approach is much more simplified and is designed around the dynamics concept and different legato variations. The VSL stuff is great, but it lacks the detail in transitions and natural dynamics that Adagio offers. So it all depends on what is important as I think Adagio and the VSL strings are on different ends of the spectrum in terms of concept. And they aim to do different things, for sure.

I think it's trying to do too much in one product, BUT the price isn't bad so it's something I keep up with a little bit. At some point I'm going to need to invest in strings. this isn't quite there for me I think. thanks tho.

No problem. I have no issues if you decide against Adagio. I have nothing to gain from you liking it. So if my review helped, even to turn you away from Adagio, then I've succeeded in what I want to do.

Personally, I think the Adagio concept is a good one. I don't think the Adagio strings are the ONLY strings a person will need. I just think they go well in a toolset as they really are different than any other libraries that have come before them. It's quite a complete package for the price(which while not a stellar no-brainer deal, it's definitely a fair price for what you get).

Any more questions, just let me know!

Brent

[koolkeys]

Edited my post above to make sure it was clear that much of the transition problems you heard in the demos of the product were from version 1.0 of the library. The review is of the vastly improved 1.1, where they went back and reworked pretty much the entire set of legato samples.

Posting this in case you already read it and didn't see the edited post. Thanks.

Brent

[jancivil]

Ok, I got it. That assessment I made was right after it first came out. Strings are really a PITA and those transitions weren't happening. the money then was in the same ballpark as now, and for a couple reasons it's def. a better buy today.

the big plus over VSL is there are a number of variants of legato and portato; frankly there is little that can't be approached with VI Pro 2, if anything; but on the surface there appears to be significantly more to work with without having to know as much as you do with VSL. What I mean is the way they have arrived at 'more' in Adagio will have used the type of tools available to the end user with VIP 2. The dynamics knob as I understand it now is filter and envelope control; and speed (time stretch). So for a lot of users this looks like more than a VSL strings lib., but for a VSL person that impression evaporates some. But the different bowing approaches and vibrato speed actually do surpass what is available with VSL strings today I believe.

The clinical thing you mention regarding intonation; VI Pro gives you an entire envelope control over 'humanizing' the pitch with a LOT of presets that are well thought-through, so the human error is at the control of the composer rather than built-in. You can make a VSL library sound like the worst guys in the world if you want.

Several mic options is the new thing. Having worked with MIR Pro it's a bit meh for me.

I can see the value of the time-stretching and you have provided a better understanding of where they're using it. Because of that, this is for me tied to Kontakt 5 and that is a sort of border as far as a decision for me (when I'm apprised of compatibility issues in systems that resemble mine, well I'm conservative about updating things in the first place.).

Additionally, the soloistic aspect is higher priority for me than sections at this juncture.

thanks for taking the time.

[koolkeys]

Ok, I got it. That assessment I made was right after it first came out. Strings are really a PITA and those transitions weren't happening. the money then was in the same ballpark as now, and for a couple reasons it's def. a better buy today.

It is indeed. I started the review before 1.1, and it wasn't going to be as glowing of a review.

the big plus over VSL is there are a number of variants of legato and portato; frankly there is little that can't be approached with VI Pro 2, if anything; but on the surface there appears to be significantly more to work with without having to know as much as you do with VSL. What I mean is the way they have arrived at 'more' in Adagio will have used the type of tools available to the end user with VIP 2. The dynamics knob as I understand it now is filter and envelope control; and speed (time stretch). So for a lot of users this looks like more than a VSL strings lib., but for a VSL person that impression evaporates some. But the different bowing approaches and vibrato speed actually do surpass what is available with VSL strings today I believe.

VI Pro is excellent, and allows a LOT of customization that other library players don't have. I love it. But it can't replicate the different legato transitions naturally. Now, you may not NEED the different variations, and obviously plenty of professionals have used VSL for good sounding orchestrations for years before Adagio was ever available. So in the right hands, both libraries can shine.

The speed control is for the legato transitions themselves only, just FYI. It doesn't affect the played note, but ONLY the length of the actual transition. And it's fine-tuned based on each legato, so you can't do any super fast chipmunk-artifact-filled transitions or super slow transitions with it. But the K5 timestretch does make a difference here, though the differences are more obvious in things like the measured tremolos and loures.

The clinical thing you mention regarding intonation; VI Pro gives you an entire envelope control over 'humanizing' the pitch with a LOT of presets that are well thought-through, so the human error is at the control of the composer rather than built-in. You can make a VSL library sound like the worst guys in the world if you want.

I love, and use the humanization features in VI Pro. But it's not the same thing as naturally swaying samples. It's like comparing a pitch bend on a bass guitar line over a real string bend. Much different. The "natural" humanization in Adagio may not be ideal for everyone, but it's definitely better than the artificial alternative if you are looking for that sound.

Several mic options is the new thing. Having worked with MIR Pro it's a bit meh for me.

Well, not much compares to MIR though, does it? At least in terms of flexibility. I appreciate multiple mic perspectives though, as long as the dry is included. It's popular, yes. But people like it, so it makes sense to do it. I'm an artificial 'verb kind of person as well since I do a lot of mixing and matching sound sources.

I can see the value of the time-stretching and you have provided a better understanding of where they're using it. Because of that, this is for me tied to Kontakt 5 and that is a sort of border as far as a decision for me (when I'm apprised of compatibility issues in systems that resemble mine, well I'm conservative about updating things in the first place.).

Additionally, the soloistic aspect is higher priority for me than sections at this juncture.

thanks for taking the time.

No problem!

Of course, Adagio does include solo instruments. But they aren't as focused on as the ensembles, which is unfortunate. That's one reason why the Adagio libraries won't be your end-all option for strings. The chamber and solo instruments really do shine best as supplements than they do as self-contained libraries. So for that alone, it may not be worth it.

As for the K5 timestretching, I'm with ya. I do happen to have K5, so it's a non-issue. But I understand your perspective there. I will say that more and more Kontakt libraries are focusing on K5 because of the improved timestretching, so it may become more of a necessity if you choose to go the Kontakt route more often. Or it may be a good reason to stay away.

Brent

[koolkeys]

By the way, if you're looking for solo violin, you may want to check out the new Embertone violin. I haven't used it yet, but it sounds great in the demos. It's NOT an all-inclusive library in terms of articulations, but it's getting lots of buzz around VI-Control in particular. May be worth checking out?

The VSL solo instruments are still pretty highly regarded though in terms of completeness and overall sound. So you're already in that ballpark. Which VSL solo instruments do you have?

Brent

[jancivil]

Several mic options is the new thing. Having worked with MIR Pro it's a bit meh for me.

Well, not much compares to MIR though, does it? At least in terms of flexibility. I appreciate multiple mic perspectives though, as long as the dry is included. It's popular, yes. But people like it, so it makes sense to do it. I'm an artificial 'verb kind of person as well since I do a lot of mixing and matching sound sources.

I haven't bought it but I worked with it as much as I could. The thing I really found exciting was the MIRacle plugin on the master bus so you scale down 'Reverberation Time' in MIR itself and send to the master bus with a Hybrid late reflections character, it's a version of Hybrid Reverb tailored for the particular rooms of MIR, to more or less replace the later reflections of the room au naturel with some 'larger than life' tails. I'm missing MIR, restricted to Hybrid Reverb. I came to use a lot more reverb with MIR Pro, esp with MIRacle on the back end. I experimented with harmonic use of LONG tails with it, I got some fantastic things with it.

Embertone isn't for me, if I spend money I get articulations.

I have Bb trumpet, Flugelhorn, Piccolo flute, Alto flute, Bass clarinet. I think my basis is going to be VSL Solo strings. I'm not apt at symphonic string scoring (my RL background is jazz, winds) and there's nothing in my life that demands that kind of expenditure in terms of VSL pricing. I think I'm going to watch this product but in conjunction with the K5 upgrade decision and an upgrade of my whole system if that ever comes to pass. Right now a lot of reports of issues with Cubase 7/OSX.7 or 8/VEP 5. I don't take on problems I'm not forced to. Typically I'll update VEP but I'm in 2010 with the other bits.

[koolkeys]

For what you're needing, I definitely think the VSL solo strings would probably suit you best. They ARE more flexible in that they were clinically recorded, as mentioned previously. And they will work within the interface you already know and prefer. So I think it's a good choice for you at this time considering the K5 upgrade in the equation.

Adagio strings may have their place though if you ever need something with a little more specific character, or if you need to add more film-score style symphonic pieces to your arrangements. That's really where Adagio does it's best. I don't know that I would prefer it for jazz or classical works, though it could surely fit in with the right programming.

Embertone is definitely more a luxury item than a core library to build with. I haven't used it yet, and it sounds fantastic to my ears in the demos. But it's definitely not comprehensive in terms of articulations.

I guess it's wonderful how many choices there are, eh?

Brent