Ableton, all plugins cause *automation* pdc issues, very good discussion within.. lots of info!

[audioird]

Hi!! I have this windows laptop i bought in a firesale at Xmas that i still haven't used (600 bucks.. a bargain) comes with a quad 2.3 ghz IVY bridge, 8gb ram, i put a nice 480gb sandisk SSD in it, and thankfully windows 7 64 included. DPC is average 100, with wireless off, 40 no spikes! it was just a bargain gem that i fluked. Video is ATI 7670 dedicated 1GB.

Anyway i am spending some more time at mums lately again cause my health is playing up again, and occasionally i simply can't fend for myself.. the thing is it's a big house and my sister, brother in law and nieces live there, and of course being 8 and 11 they run around causing havoc.. i think they have wrecked everything electronic some way or another

I bought this laptop as my throwaway. Where as my macbook with similar specs cost me close to $3,000 in 2011, this cost 20% of that.. i don't mean throwaway in a bad sense as it is lovely.. but i would rather take that with me than lug around my macbook which is far more important to me. Hope that makes sense.. i feel like i can RELAX more with a 600 laptop when i'll be using one of my nieces rooms and i know she'll be in there whenever she wants LOL. I will also only be using my NON dongled plugins. Basically minimum damage possibilities. i will be using a 128 GB sandisk extreme usb 3 flash drive for audio.. um yeah, let's just say it's *plenty* fast and certainly faster than a 7200rpm drive that is 5 times bigger (of course not ssd but for 16 tracks of playback MORE than enough by a mile, i reckon it could do 128 tracks!)

I ALREADY own ableton, i was going to look at mixcraft for $79 but i thought why spend money? I don't use live as a main host, i tried it back when for a day, got to know all the functions, and realised i COULD.. as in i feel comfy in it..if i had to.. but i obviously never went deep enough in creating a complex mix where all these PDC issues would come to light.

So here is my dilemma. Anything i create at mum's on ableton can open in my mac and i can then re structure it in logic if i really need to. I would love to use logic but it's not possible on a mac, and i really do NOT want to take my dongles there.. on windows there are some free plugins that can replace some of my dongled stuff, where mac has no replacement for example. I am still going to be able to use my plugin alliance stuff etc though which makes me very happy

But i recently found out in a topic right here at KVR that every single instance of ANY plugin in ableton causes latency and pdc issues! I honestly always thought that if i just used zero latency plugins (of which there are many), i'd never have an issue. Now i have found out, that even true zero latency plugins, add your buffer latency to the signal for every instance!
I am guessing i will be using a 128 buffer with asio 4 all and headphones, but it's possible i may need to go to 256. Let's look at worst scenario.. 4 x 256 samples latency on a track, using just 4 zero latency plugins, will cause 1024 samples latency! as far as i understand there is NO Way around this.

Now it all makes sense why so many people argue that ableton sounds bad. They think it's the audio engine, but it's the pdc.. there must be so many phase and sync problems. HOW DO YOU DO IT! is there some tips i should understand?

I would LOVE to not buy another host, and just use what i have.. but i don't see how you guys do it, and i really must be missing something hence this topic. Every single zero latency plugin i and you add to ableton on ANY track, ANYWHERE in the signal path, adds one instance of the audio buffer latency. PDC keeps it all in sync audible, EXCEPT for automation, host tempo effects, and the visual play head (if you zoom in you'll see it goes out the precise amount of combined plugin latency. Say i have a 100ms plugin on track 1, even track 2 plays *visually* out of time)


Since any plugin in the world is going to cause this problem, how do you deal with it. Any tips appreciated.

And finally, please some info on mixcraft if anyone uses it. It claims full PDC and multi core, but i never read anything about it here, yet it looks like it's right up my alley.. just dead simple to use from the videos i have seen on youtube.

Thanks so much in advance.

If it worked, it wouldn't be called "Live".
I mean that if you reach a point where PDC is required, then you can't play live using a keyboard controlling a VSTi on one of your track.
It seems that it's not appropriate to use Ableton Live for what you are doing.

I think you are missing the fact that it is also marketed as a full composition and recording studio daw also, not just a live tool. I really don't understand where you are coming from with this at all.. you are basically saying my uses, which are composing a song and using effects to mix it and want it all in time, is something i should not expect ableton to do.. I will respectfully disagree, and take a guess that many others would back me on this one.

The problem comes from the fact that you are trying to use Ableton Live like Protools or Digital Performer.

[Echoes in the Attic]

The problem comes from the fact that you are trying to use Ableton Live like Protools or Digital Performer.

If by that you mean it's incorrect to try to use Ableton Live like a DAW that properly compensates latency, then sure. But by that Logic, it's always the users fault if they are trying to use a broken thing the way they would with a non broken thing.

[twisted-space]

Another way to show the issue here. The image below shows where I have to put the automation to mute the second hit, using reverberate with 8192 sample delay.

Cant you just use clip automation instead?

Yes, of course. That wouldn't demonstrate the effect though.

[Mushy Mushy]

Another way to show the issue here. The image below shows where I have to put the automation to mute the second hit, using reverberate with 8192 sample delay.

Cant you just use clip automation instead?

Yes, of course. That wouldn't demonstrate the effect though.

Ok cool.
I guess this is why i've never known about the problem before now.
I always just use clip automation.

[audioird]

The problem comes from the fact that you are trying to use Ableton Live like Protools or Digital Performer.

If by that you mean it's incorrect to try to use Ableton Live like a DAW that properly compensates latency, then sure. But by that Logic, it's always the users fault if they are trying to use a broken thing the way they would with a non broken thing.

Yep. Version 9 of the thing still doesn't fix it. Need another daw, especially for studio recording with many plugins.

[samsam]

I for one can't wait until Bitwig comes out - it'll solve all Live's problems and i'm convinced it won't have any problems of its own. Bitwig, my AUs and Reason rewired will make me a very happy camper indeed.

I'll be selling my copy of Live 9 on the MP for 50p.

[cron]

I'll be selling my copy of Live 9 on the MP for 50p.

PM sent

[samsam]

I'll be selling my copy of Live 9 on the MP for 50p.

PM sent

Ha!

BTW, as wonderfully useful and interesting as this thread is, it appears the issue as already been covered, so if you don't find yourselves getting enough *good info* here, here's another 20-pager for you

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... t=live+pdc

After all, I'm sure we all can't get enough Live PDC threads

[Echoes in the Attic]

I'll be selling my copy of Live 9 on the MP for 50p.

PM sent

Ha!

BTW, as wonderfully useful and interesting as this thread is, it appears the issue as already been covered, so if you don't find yourselves getting enough *good info* here, here's another 20-pager for you

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... t=live+pdc

After all, I'm sure we all can't get enough Live PDC threads

Yeah, it's all been covered to death both here in the thread above and at the Ableton forum. But even still, people stumble upon a newer thread and find out things they missed before...

[Wormhelmet]

If you keep automation and recordings done in the clips, it's quite easy to hotkey the session and arrangement views while copying clips and pasting on marker point in arrangement. Getting used to using session view from being experienced with a standard multitrack DAW probably takes some time to acclimate, but once you learn the workflow, is quite easy and makes a ton of sense.

Particularly if you came from pattern based hardware sequencing devices. Live just takes the single track and adds some brilliant looping flexibility to it with the use of clips.

I'm glad to see the thread title was edited although still not accurate as all plugins don't introduce latency as has been discussed here and various other threads. The original title of the thread was a bit ludicrous. If it was that much a sh*t program, you would not have so many happy users of it.

Quite happy with performance for what I do with it on a modest system.

Honestly if the OP is using it as he described, he would be better off just jumping to another DAW and save the Live work for when he gets tired of traditional multitracking and wants to explore a live performance oriented DAW.

That's the beauty of having choices here. I think the piano roll on most other DAW's is probably better too. Live kind of has just mediocre piano roll capabilities. Not extremely intuitive compared to others. Thinking of venturing into the multiple DAW style myself for that reason. Or just waiting for the 2nd coming where the Messiah not only brings some hope and words of wisdom, but the first official copy of Bitwig Studio 1.0

I imagine it will be a little like the pied piper coming down the street but just a trail of cats instead of rats.

Any day now......

[twisted-space]

Another way to show the issue here. The image below shows where I have to put the automation to mute the second hit, using reverberate with 8192 sample delay.

Cant you just use clip automation instead?

Yes, of course. That wouldn't demonstrate the effect though.

Ok cool.
I guess this is why i've never known about the problem before now.
I always just use clip automation.

How would I automate an fx send level in an arrangement view clip?

[Mushy Mushy]

Another way to show the issue here. The image below shows where I have to put the automation to mute the second hit, using reverberate with 8192 sample delay.

Cant you just use clip automation instead?

Yes, of course. That wouldn't demonstrate the effect though.

Ok cool.
I guess this is why i've never known about the problem before now.
I always just use clip automation.

How would I automate an fx send level in an arrangement view clip?

Hmmmmm good question.
Guess you wouldn't

By this stage of the production I would have migrated it all over to Cubase.

[Echoes in the Attic]

I'm glad to see the thread title was edited although still not accurate as all plugins don't introduce latency as has been discussed here and various other threads.

Not sure what you mean.

Are you seriously trying to say that any plug-in does not cause latency of the audio buffer? If this is what you're saying you are completely wrong. And it is very easy to prove and has been demonstrated time and time again. Any third party plug-in, even a ZERO Latency plug-in will add latency of the audio buffer. This is a fact, agreed upon by everyone including Ableton.

And although clip envelopes work better than automation, synced plug-ins are effects as well. It's not just automation.

[Wormhelmet]

I'm glad to see the thread title was edited although still not accurate as all plugins don't introduce latency as has been discussed here and various other threads.

Not sure what you mean.

Are you seriously trying to say that any plug-in does not cause latency of the audio buffer? If this is what you're saying you are completely wrong. And it is very easy to prove and has been demonstrated time and time again. Any third party plug-in, even a ZERO Latency plug-in will add latency of the audio buffer. This is a fact, agreed upon by everyone including Ableton.

And although clip envelopes work better than automation, synced plug-ins are effects as well. It's not just automation.

Yes, thank you for proving my point. You said third party plugins. I didn't. Should I use the term noticeable latency? When I live monitor my Live mixes while playing third party plugin instruments, I am not hearing latency. I think the original description was completely inaccurate.

So yes, I am serious. If you have issues with Live and they don't get addressed in multiple releases still, I suggest people stop banging on a wall wishing it was a door. Use another DAW that suits workflow better.

I have used third party plugin chains plenty in Live while recording guitar and live monitoring. Latency jumps of 128 samples to 256 samples are even noticeable. I don't get those noticeable latencies. This small jump in samples can completely throw playing off if you are anything over about 6 ms latency max on interface to live monitor. Live does not give me issues with any of that.

[twisted-space]

How would I automate an fx send level in an arrangement view clip?

Hmmmmm good question.
Guess you wouldn't

By this stage of the production I would have migrated it all over to Cubase.

I'm genuinely curious, why bother with Live at all then?