I want to know what that sounds like.JoeCat wrote:Is the Suite version for EDM DJ's who might just happen to need a pizzicato oboe hit
I think all EDM DJ's could use a good swift pizzicato hit with an oboe.
Ableton, all plugins cause *automation* pdc issues, very good discussion within.. lots of info!
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
I think all EDM DJ's could use a good swift pizzicato hit with an oboe.
My host is better than your host
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- KVRer
- 26 posts since 5 Apr, 2004
I experienced this issue during the final mix stage of a very complex album project that I was working on, where the audio became noticeably smeared due to timing inaccuracies in track automation and from out of sync tempo based effects. I only noticed it because the mix started to just sound wrong in places, and I thought that I was going crazy, having worked on the project too long or something, and had to research why and discovered this for myself.
Once I realized what was happening, it was overwhelming and deflating because of the scale of the mix, because we had just gone for it and not paid attention to plugin latencies and the order of processes along the way, never even considering that the mix automation would actually drift from what was being input and displayed back to us. We trusted the software's feedback.
So the choice was to either erase weeks of carefully constructed automation programming across several dozen tracks, group busses and effects sends for an entire hourlong mix, rewriting the mix over from scratch while paying careful attention to and logging down the latencies introduced by every plugin and routing decision, along with printing every timing based effect to audio before writing automation or if processing the effect with additional effects... or to put the album out as it was, smeared and out of sync.
Though I did give starting over a noble attempt for about a week, the decision made was to release the album as it was, mainly due to time commitments and budget constraints, yet also because the project was more meditative and ambient, and the audience would probably not recognize the timing inaccuracies and audible audio smearing. It was a difficult decision and not one that I was good with deep down. Yet it was my fault in the end, because the artist was trusting me to not let this kind of thing happen.
Live is great for audio manipulation and looping, for live performance and triggering of audio and midi clips, and for quickly getting down creative ideas in a scratchpad or brainstorming approach. As a mixing platform, not so much.
The community's attitude about it on the Ableton forum leading up to the Live 9 release helped me to move on as well.
Once I realized what was happening, it was overwhelming and deflating because of the scale of the mix, because we had just gone for it and not paid attention to plugin latencies and the order of processes along the way, never even considering that the mix automation would actually drift from what was being input and displayed back to us. We trusted the software's feedback.
So the choice was to either erase weeks of carefully constructed automation programming across several dozen tracks, group busses and effects sends for an entire hourlong mix, rewriting the mix over from scratch while paying careful attention to and logging down the latencies introduced by every plugin and routing decision, along with printing every timing based effect to audio before writing automation or if processing the effect with additional effects... or to put the album out as it was, smeared and out of sync.
Though I did give starting over a noble attempt for about a week, the decision made was to release the album as it was, mainly due to time commitments and budget constraints, yet also because the project was more meditative and ambient, and the audience would probably not recognize the timing inaccuracies and audible audio smearing. It was a difficult decision and not one that I was good with deep down. Yet it was my fault in the end, because the artist was trusting me to not let this kind of thing happen.
Live is great for audio manipulation and looping, for live performance and triggering of audio and midi clips, and for quickly getting down creative ideas in a scratchpad or brainstorming approach. As a mixing platform, not so much.
Yes, eventually one just has to move on. I held out until the Live 9 release, hopeful that it was going to be addressed, at least to some degree; and also because my investment with migrating to Live as a complete solution, in software, hardware, time and education, was considerable. Yet it was really Ableton's choice to not address the issue with the Live 9 release, to not even discuss it whatsoever, that was my cue to move on.Wormhelmet wrote:Yes, it would be great if Ableton addressed the issue or all those encountering it, but how many years should someone wish for that before moving on to work in an environment that doesn't cause them grief?
The community's attitude about it on the Ableton forum leading up to the Live 9 release helped me to move on as well.
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- KVRist
- 413 posts since 17 Mar, 2005 from Cumbria, England
I don't think I have ever had a problem with the automation being out of step simply because I don't do that level of precise on the beat automation. However, what I do always get, and I think that this is a PDC thing, is that the first playback of a track in the arrange window is different to playing it back through a second time.
The first time playback is accompanied by various clicks and pops whenever a something new is introduced, for example it might be a plug in instrument that starts to play. It doesn't happen on the second play though. It's like Live is learning to add the necesary audio compensation as it runs through the track the first time. The click itself is hard to define but I would say it sounds as if the whole track has just stepped backward a fraction.
It seems to be related to those tracks that are using effects sends. But it's not a disc related issue because it happens with synths as well as sample playback devices. The larger the set the more likely the clicks will be audible.
The first time playback is accompanied by various clicks and pops whenever a something new is introduced, for example it might be a plug in instrument that starts to play. It doesn't happen on the second play though. It's like Live is learning to add the necesary audio compensation as it runs through the track the first time. The click itself is hard to define but I would say it sounds as if the whole track has just stepped backward a fraction.
It seems to be related to those tracks that are using effects sends. But it's not a disc related issue because it happens with synths as well as sample playback devices. The larger the set the more likely the clicks will be audible.
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- KVRian
- 928 posts since 10 Jan, 2010
akshara... what did you end up moving to? i don't use much automation or midi synced stuff currently, so it didn't bother me, but once i realized that all that cool m4l control stuff was going to throw my set out of whack i never even bothered moving to live 9.
i still use it for now... and there isn't much else with anything like the m4l/python environment that live has... but i don't understand why they added all these new features that are hobbled by this old issue.
i still use it for now... and there isn't much else with anything like the m4l/python environment that live has... but i don't understand why they added all these new features that are hobbled by this old issue.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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- KVRAF
- 1596 posts since 19 May, 2011 from North Carolina
+1TheoM wrote:...
Look i know it's not a big issue to everyone, but shouldn't we all able to add effects int he order we want and automate whatever we want without having to worry about these things? it's 2013 and Logic DID PDC BETTER in 2004!
Live still works for me because I've switched to bouncing/resampling, largely because of the CPU costs (I typically keep a copy of the original midi tracks and group them as part of the project so I can always go back, but work with audio and try to keep midi-timed effects on the audio tracks).
Works for me only because my workflow is not dictated by a particular end-result - I'm just having fun. But for someone working towards a specific goal - professionally or as an amateur - this isn't something to take lightly.
And when I get pissed-off, I play in Renoise
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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- KVRer
- 26 posts since 5 Apr, 2004
No, not yet.TheoM wrote:Akshara has the studio one automation bug affected you? It's also not sample accurate but nothing like live of course.
Straightforward automation discrepancies I can work with. The larger issue for me in Live is with timing based effects getting out of sync.
All that is good in Studio One is really quite good, and that makes me hopeful.
*edited for brevity
Last edited by Akshara on Thu May 30, 2013 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRer
- 26 posts since 5 Apr, 2004
My previous post here was TMI and OT. Basically, I ran some timing and automation tests in Studio One earlier and was good with the results.
Last edited by Akshara on Thu May 30, 2013 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 928 posts since 10 Jan, 2010
thanks... that's good to know, i have studio one but haven't learned it yet, and had been putting it off because of some rumors that it had some automation issues of its own (and why would i give up all the amazing things live does give you for another flawed platform). given what you said, it sounds like whatever issues it has are minor enough to make it worth at least trying.
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- KVRer
- 26 posts since 5 Apr, 2004
Definitely worth trying. And I see no reason to give up all of the amazing things Live can do, unless you really want to. I'm taking a break from it for now, focusing attention elsewhere. Yet Live is still there if I really need it. It helped me a great deal when I began to perceive of Live more as a musical instrument in itself, rather than as a complete DAW solution. Live and Studio One, are very complimentary of each other, as each brings unique possibilities to the table.
Wishing you success, chroma, whatever you decide.
Wishing you success, chroma, whatever you decide.
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- KVRian
- 997 posts since 27 Apr, 2005
perhaps I'm getting involved somewhere I shouldn't since I'm not a live user (I am a Reason user, which has it's own issues with pdc) I just wanted to see if I could make a couple points without hopefully getting everyone's panties in a bunch. I'm not certainly belittling anyone's experience, but I'm just wondering how realistic is it to expect any program to be the holy grail. All DAWs suck at something (*sarcasm alert* except apparently Reaper) but usually bring something else to the table to make it worth our while. Ableton's pdc issues should not be a surprise to anyone who has followed this or other audio forums. Why is it necessary to use only one tool for our music making? bouncing stems to another DAW is some work, but not really very much once you make the mental leap that it's not "something we shouldn't have to do" I would say from this thread that I wouldn't be mixing tracks in live, but that's not really Live's strong point anyway. I kind of reject the notion that you can buy one product that will do everything that you want. have a few daws and use them for their strengths and don't use them in areas they are not strong.
I also think that when you are creating music it's one process, and when you are mixing music it's another. you can sort of do both at the same time now with these tools, but it's not generally very productive. bouncing everything to audio before mixing lets you mentally be aware that you have stopped the creation and sound design portion of the project and have moved on to something else.
just my 2 cents worth
I also think that when you are creating music it's one process, and when you are mixing music it's another. you can sort of do both at the same time now with these tools, but it's not generally very productive. bouncing everything to audio before mixing lets you mentally be aware that you have stopped the creation and sound design portion of the project and have moved on to something else.
just my 2 cents worth
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- Banned
- 44 posts since 26 Apr, 2013
Presonus Studio One is really a robust and cost effective solution for studio projects and dealing with PDC and automation.
In that case it's worth going a little back in time on the GUI from Live to Studio One
In that case it's worth going a little back in time on the GUI from Live to Studio One