Satin goes V1.1

[4damind]

I have a feature request:
A switch for "Hiss auto mute" (mute the hiss if there is no signal on a track/instance or if the signal is under a given threshold).

[Ch00rD]

+1 on the feature request to (also) show delay times in milliseconds (and/or musical time when sync'ed).

Btw, does anybody have the exact formula handy to determine delay time (in (mili)seconds) in Delay mode (with tempo sync switched off) from the values of the Speed ups + Distance parameters, for calculating delay times manually? I suck at maths, the imperial system, and am also a bit lazy.

[...] The Roland RE-201 had three heads and a place reverb. So keep that in mind. I unfortunately couldn't get any grittier tape. But it's a start. The rest is down to fine tuning.

According to the GSi GS-201, the heads are apart about 113 ms for Head 1, 220 ms for Head 2 and 331 ms for Head 3 - whatever that represents in SATIN. [...]

Thanks for sharing those RE-201-ish presets! To get a more gritty sound, perhaps also switch on Makeup and lower the input volume?

Fwiw: the delay times that are being used for the repro heads in UA's emulation of the Roland SE-201 Space Echo apparently differ from the one you used for reference: Head 1 = 177 ms, Head 2 = 336 ms; Head 3 = 487 ms (with the non-authentic sync mode disabled, of course).

[momalle3]

I have a feature request:
A switch for "Hiss auto mute" (mute the hiss if there is no signal on a track/instance or if the signal is under a given threshold).

Yes, that would be nice

[Ch00rD]

Some minor issues and feature requests:

- There seems to be a bug in the GUI for Satin's Delay mode: cf. Satin User Guide, p. 15: "When the slider itself is clicked, however, you can still set arbitrary values i.e. they won't snap." This does not work as expected here (I tested it in several hosts: Numerology 3 Pro, REAPER 4.52, Live 8.4/9.0.5). While the slider image does indeed not snap in that case, the actual parameter value *does* snap (but should not, according to the description). This functionality is important to set delay times which are slightly off from exact 'musical' time divisions, but still maintain the ability to follow the musical tempo.

- When Makeup is enabled, quickly turning down the Input volume (thus also raising the volume level of the output to compensate) *also* increases the volume level of any audio in the delay's feedback loop. As a result, the output volume level may still increase sharply when quickly turning down the input volume - which may feel rather counter-intuitive. I imagine it is not quite as simple to compensate for this (as it is for output volume), but if it would somehow be feasible to do so, please do.

- A somewhat related suggestion: when Makeup is *disabled*, imho it would be very useful to have a mouse modifier available for the Input control, in order to (still) apply gain makeup to the Output, thus overriding the Makeup switch setting temporarily (perhaps explicitly moving the knob, to differentiate from the 'regular' makeup behaviour). Conversely, the same modifier could be used to *not* apply makeup gain when Makeup is enabled.

- A FR for Satin's Delay mode: I would absolutely love to see a switch to disable the erase head of the tape machine, in order to (more easily) create 'endless loops'.

- The undo/redo buttons that we know and love from other u-he plug-ins are still missing (the corresponding images are included, though).

- FR: I'd like to see an additional mode for the VU meter displays that would show gain difference between I/O ('gain reduction'), which would come in handy especially when using Satin for dynamics processing.

- A suggestion/FR regarding the maximum delay time: if that can somehow be increased in a future revision, how about adding a 1 Repro Head(s) mode which would use a tape loop length twice the current size, and use a dedicated GUI panel, with a single Distance slider that is twice as long as the ones in 2 Repro Heads mode. I would absolutely love to have enough 'tape', i.e. time, to capture a full measure at any tempo higher than 112.5 BPM.

[Compyfox]

Man!
I don't know WHAT happened, but this pissed me off big time!

I wasted 1,5 hours on fine tuning a preset (another tape delay), saved it, clicked "save and backup", reloaded it and...

It turned into a studio preset and all other settings were gone, half of the service panel settings were also reset - and the service panel was closed on top of it (not opened GUI wise).

Since I had to tune to a recorded WAV, and the inch positioning is non helpful, I have to do this all over again. (Thankfully one preset survived, so it's an easy fix).


This happened with v1818. I'll have to see if the latest beta will work better. But this was to be expected at some point.


EDIT:
Yes, this seems to happen again in 1827. Apparently, always if there is the "lock" mode involved. Which then funks up all other presets as well.

So to those thinking of creating presets and LOCKING certain feautures. If you don't want to frustrate yourself - DO NOT DO IT!

Thanks for sharing those RE-201-ish presets! To get a more gritty sound, perhaps also switch on Makeup and lower the input volume?

Tried that actually, didn't work. But you can always try to pull that off. To make it a bit more "gritty" and "more hifi", you can of course turn up the Highcut. Actually, I'll do so with a preset overhaul.

Else, this module is noisy.

Fwiw: the delay times that are being used for the repro heads in UA's emulation of the Roland SE-201 Space Echo apparently differ from the one you used for reference: Head 1 = 177 ms, Head 2 = 336 ms; Head 3 = 487 ms (with the non-authentic sync mode disabled, of course).

Keep in mind, not every RE-201 was the same. The values only show me, that the first and the second head was moved a bit mechanically. And you get these values at the slowest speed.

The plugin I "modeled" this from, has 165ms as slowest for the first head.

I can of course try and find a digital delay, set that up to these values and provide a fourth preset. No problem.


If SATIN likes me to create presets that is.

[Ch00rD]

Fwiw: the delay times that are being used for the repro heads in UA's emulation of the Roland SE-201 Space Echo apparently differ from the one you used for reference: Head 1 = 177 ms, Head 2 = 336 ms; Head 3 = 487 ms (with the non-authentic sync mode disabled, of course).

Keep in mind, not every RE-201 was the same. The values only show me, that the first and the second head was moved a bit mechanically. And you get these values at the slowest speed.

The plugin I "modeled" this from, has 165ms as slowest for the first head.

I can of course try and find a digital delay, set that up to these values and provide a fourth preset. No problem.


If SATIN likes me to create presets that is.

I'm very sorry to hear about your trouble. Hopefully your beta testing efforts help to prevent similar issues for other users later on, so it wasn't a complete waste of your time.

And yes, of course, those analog devices do not all sound exactly the same. However, also keep in mind that we may not only attempt to replace actual hardware such as the SE-201 with Satin as a 'virtual tape machine construction kit', but also some other plug-ins that emulate such hardware devices. If we can create a preset that makes Satin do (more or less) the same as some other plug-in (preset) does, then even if that other plug-in would not be an accurate emulation of some hardware device at all, we would still have made an alternative for that other plug-in (preset).

[geronimo]

It's a bit difficult to emulate the old echo chambers like ROLAND RE-201, RE-501: they also had a reverb for example .

[Ch00rD]

It's a bit difficult to emulate the old echo chambers like ROLAND RE-201, RE-501: they also had a reverb for example .

Very true. Complete authenticity is out of the question in cases as these.

However, I personally don't like the sound of those reverbs very much, and would typically use them only for the delay, bypassing the reverb altogether.

[kmonkey]

It's a bit difficult to emulate the old echo chambers like ROLAND RE-201, RE-501: they also had a reverb for example .

Very true. Complete authenticity is out of the question in cases as these.

However, I personally don't like the sound of those reverbs very much, and would typically use them only for the delay, bypassing the reverb altogether.

You can turn Reverb off on these devices..

[Ch00rD]

Also, +1 on the feature requests for lower minimum tape speed. Taking it to the extreme: especially when in in Delay mode, I would love to be able to go down to zero, for 'tape stop' effects, and even negative speeds (i.e. changing the tape direction). The latter could be achieved by extending the 'Speed ips' parameter value range to negative numbers, but also by adding a 'reverse' switch (cf. how this is implemented in Sonic Charge's Permut8 effect).

[Ch00rD]

[...] You can turn Reverb off on these devices..

Yes, that is exactly what I typically do, so I'm not complaining - but the fact that geronimo pointed out remains: Satin can't fully emulate the functionality of those devices.

[Compyfox]

@Ch00rD:
Keep in mind, that my preset uses 120bpm as basis, while the settings in the UAD manual show the minimum and maximum speed values. You still need to do the math if you want to setup the heads to the correct/desired beats.

If I'd setup the UAD to 120bpm, the first head would be at 125ms.
Now let's do the math...

Purely mathematical:
H1: 125ms, H2: 250ms, H3: 375ms (1/8th dot) or 333.333 (1/4t).

The UAD heads in relation to each other:
H1: 125ms (1/16th), H2: roughly 237,375ms (shifted 1/8th), H3: roughly 335 to 340ms (1/4th t)

GSi clone:
H1: 125ms (1/16th), H2: 246ms (1/8th), H3: 370ms (1/8th dot)


Unless I get exact values of all three heads (first one setup to 125ms or 120bpm), I have to work with these values. This is possible - and if you folks are up to it, I'll do it.

[penguinfromdeep]

Yes, that is exactly what I typically do, so I'm not complaining - but the fact that geronimo pointed out remains: Satin can't fully emulate the functionality of those devices.

Nor the sound. Satin is good but as a gritty tape (space) echo emulation it fails a bit, in my opinion. And I guess it's not meant to be one ...

But there's hope!

"Currently looking for a good Space Echo. RE-201 or RE-301. I love the warble in this video, even if it is a worn out tape."

Quote from Valhalla dsp facebook page!

[geronimo]

a Compyfo:

It may be necessary to delay values ​​are not exactly multiples (double or triple) or they overlap exactly and some may cancel. Hence the slightly outliers Plug-in other editors .
Not obvious to think about _

[Compyfox]

I think this is another point for argumentation why no emulation sounds the same, and not one is ultimately the best.