Satin goes V1.1

[Urs]

just reposting this as i think it may have gotten buried already

I'll look into it.

We have alot of mysterious problems with Reaper. May be related to its plugin undo functionality, or something else.

I'll do some ghost hunting on a free afternoon in a few days.

[4damind]

PRESETS:
RL Space Echo Presets v1.01
RL Copycat Presets v1.00


Suitable for SATIN v1827 (RC) and up.
Please enjoy.

Thanks, sounds very good!
It's also a interesting starting point for own delays with this Space Echo "flavor".

[Compyfox]

Indeed. Just mess with the different head volumes, feedback and input gain - and then go from there.

If future versions of SATIN show milliseconds along to the technical values in the non-sync mode, and beats in the sync mode, then it's even simpler to set up.


Oh and... just an info for those that want to mess with the hiss:
The hiss volume is actually "not" representing the output volume.

I used a digital meter post SATIN to find the correct noise floor value for my needs. In example: -60dBFS was -68,80 in SATIN.



If there will be a "lofi" mode, or "poly-satin" (plastic satin, as in... cheap and lofi) - I'd also love to see a hum mode introduced. 50/60Hz should be more than enough, with control over the volume of course. But I'm rather aiming at the Lower tape speeds and therefore EQ courves.

I simply assumed, that the tape machines I recreated used 7,5ips. Which is pretty normal at semi pro gear. So why shouldn't tape delays use that speed.



EDIT:
I think I'll tackle the technical aspects of a Fostex 280 next (still have the manual). But I don't know how to recreate that frequency courve from 40Hz zo 14kHz... *hm...*

[david.beholder]

I found strange behavior:

I have two channels, with one instance of satin on each. Satin has two groups. When I open Satin form channel 2 which is using group 2. If I click on group 1 button and group 2 settings seems to disappear i.e. i can switch back, but there's no difference in sound

I don't think it's platform dependable, but I'm on win7 64/reaper 64

I think it's something we need to clarify, and maybe we need input from users to master this.

At the moment, Groups rely on the instances of Satin that are open. If a Group is empty, i.e. there's no Satin part of that Group, then there's no setting in the Group. The first Satin that joins a Group becomes the "Group Master" so to speak, and any other Satin that joins will take over the same settings.

Now, if all Satins that were on a Group leave the Group, then there's no "Group Master" anymore. Thus the next Satin (with different settings) that enters this Group will again become its Group Master. Thus, whatever setting was used on that Group before, is now gone.

#---

We have discussed the option that the Groups will "memorise" whatever setting was on them if all Satins leave the Group. So that, if any Satin comes back to it, that Satin would be set to the Group's memory.

That's what I was expecting as behavior, therefore i was really frustrated.
So I vote for group memory within the project, which would be extremely helpful in cases like mine.

BTW thing is full of æsoteric and sounds good i.e. it has both properties of tape machine.

[elxsound]

@Ch00rd - if you grab the slider at its handle, you can freely move it. Only if you click into free space inside the slider region it'll quantise to 16th notes. You can furtermore use shift for fine control and you can use shift + mousewheel for that as well.

@everyone: Satin is first and foremost a simulation of high endish tape components. We hadn't aimed for lofi, but if it's requested and if we find the time we might add some more dirt for sure.

@Compyfox: The Lock functionality should only work on preset load. It does not affect a saved preset. Just make sure you have nothing locked when you load that preset.

I'm actually very happy Satin focuses on what it does without a lo-fi aim. Not that I'd complain if it were included, but I'm extremely please with how well Satin works/sounds.

[Compyfox]

Folks, please redownload the RE-201 presets. I did a mistake with the HISS mode. The Noise Floor is now correctly at -64dBFS.

[Dip200]

Why does the reference level knob not change the threshold/headroom? It makes no sense to me. My sessions are calibrated to around -18db, that's the sweet spot so to speak. So when I turn the reference level down to -18 that's where my audio should be hitting the tape machine at around zero. But all it does is changing the display. What's the benefit of it I need to change the Input knob to drive the tape harder ?

[lnikj]

Bought! Thanks Sascha, Urs & all. And Compyfox for topping it off with a great go at something I've always wanted. Cheers.

[Compyfox]

Hm... I just messed with Satin again.
Looks like a pure technical FOSTEX 280 preset is possible. Unfortunately, I can't null this device either - I don't have the hardware anymore (pity, was a fun tool).


Maybe I'll have something later tonight. Noisefloor and crosstalk is down already. Finetuning with the EQ pretty much as well. Now it's only down to listening tests.



Oh and... sorry... but please, please redownload the RE-201 and Copycat presets again. I reduced the wow&flutter a bit.

The RE's (built mid 70ies) are now at about 48% and the Copycat (built late 60ies) at about 53%. Want a more even running machine, reduce this value.

But the RE uses a loose tape loop that is only staightned by the outer capstans. And the Copycat is running wobbly due to the capstan to the right (if it gets sticky) and the wobbling rails to the left (look on google for a Copycat Mk IV reference pic).

It's still a great starting point. You decide in the end how smooth this tape machine is running.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Indeed. Just mess with the different head volumes, feedback and input gain - and then go from there.

If future versions of SATIN show milliseconds along to the technical values in the non-sync mode, and beats in the sync mode, then it's even simpler to set up.


Oh and... just an info for those that want to mess with the hiss:
The hiss volume is actually "not" representing the output volume.

I used a digital meter post SATIN to find the correct noise floor value for my needs. In example: -60dBFS was -68,80 in SATIN.



If there will be a "lofi" mode, or "poly-satin" (plastic satin, as in... cheap and lofi) - I'd also love to see a hum mode introduced. 50/60Hz should be more than enough, with control over the volume of course. But I'm rather aiming at the Lower tape speeds and therefore EQ courves.

I simply assumed, that the tape machines I recreated used 7,5ips. Which is pretty normal at semi pro gear. So why shouldn't tape delays use that speed.



EDIT:
I think I'll tackle the technical aspects of a Forstex 280 next (still have the manual). But I don't know how to recreate that frequency courve from 40Hz zo 14kHz... *hm...*

That's the fun part dude, It needn't be perfect just almost IMveryhumbleHO.
I've not had time myself to download SATIN and try it Always life is in the way.

You could hunt through these for example
http://www.mzentertainment.com/main.html
http://reel2reeltexas.com/vinListUnusua ... usual.html
Edit: Best I'm aware of and these are more pro units than you are after though
is Jack Endino's page here: http://www.endino.com/graphs/

I'd dig up more if I had time man, Sorry

All the best

Dean

[Compyfox]

The thing is:

a) Satin doesn't offer <7,5 IPS (19cm/s) yet
b) most of these manual don't come with frequency plots

Else, nice resource - if the manual is detailed in any form (looking at the REVOX B77 currently).


And I just realized, that I can't port the FOSTEX, since it's running at 9,5cm/s (3,75ips) rather than 19cm/s (7,5ips). That means... I can still do it - but with 7,5ips.

Actually, I think the Copycat and the RE-201 also run at 3,75 - but I can't find any additional info. So yes... a custom 4 band EQ post the Service Panel or as "alternate EQ" mode would indeed help recreating "elder" modules - not just the obious ones.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

If I get more time/chance to route through a heck load of bookmarks and find anything then I will send them your way. However yes the manuals are not usually as detailed with specifications (probably because the manufacturer's didn't want us all to know how low-fidelity their gear really was in respect to frequency plots instead of the xHz - xKhz given, Even then that was only best case scenario, As you'll notice Jack Endino added extra frequencies to give himself a better picture of what was really going on). So for sure I wouldn't be too optimistic for less desirable machines and tape based effects being given frequency response plots. Still as said I will have a look and maybe something will turn up

All the best, I just wish my other commitments weren't as time intensive or I'd be all over SATIN...I'll get to join you all soon enough

Dean

[Compyfox]

I just used Grouping for the first time, while messing with my FOSTEX plugin. (working fine so far - even at 7,5ips - heh, thanks to head gap and preamphasis)

Anyway...

At the moment, Groups rely on the instances of Satin that are open. If a Group is empty, i.e. there's no Satin part of that Group, then there's no setting in the Group. The first Satin that joins a Group becomes the "Group Master" so to speak, and any other Satin that joins will take over the same settings.

Now, if all Satins that were on a Group leave the Group, then there's no "Group Master" anymore. Thus the next Satin (with different settings) that enters this Group will again become its Group Master. Thus, whatever setting was used on that Group before, is now gone.

I just found out, that if you already created a group with like 3 SATIN instances and proper settings (Group 1), then create another group (separate SATIN instance, Group 2) with the same preset, but a different EQ setting, then switching that group (Group 2) over to Group 1 (the three SATIN's), then the parameters from Group 1 are overwritten with that from Group 2.

That shouldn't happen.

Keeping the group temporary in the memory might be a solution (until the project is relaunched for example). But else... don't know.

But as the whole concept of Grouping is somewhat new to us (and it's a development stunt as well), we have decided to stick to our initial implementation (no Group memory) until we get feedback from the users.

We'll certainly have a thread about this.

Another thing that I'd like to see with grouping functions:

- Independent settings of the Input gain
Currently you can only setup the tape machine GLOBALLY. Which is a good thing, since you either "play back from" or "record to" tape. Though some people might want to abuse SATIN as channel strips.

Heck even my Grundik TK747 only has input volume and output volume for all channels. Setup once, forget the rest.


- Reference Level linked to Saturation
As the name says, the Reference Level should be linked to the saturation module. I also have the impression that this is not the case. Either that, or the -12dBFS reference level in the manual is the actual reference level of the whole engine!


- independent setup of the reference level/saturation per channel
If the reference level will be linked to the saturation in a future update, also make that independent for groups, please. Granted more work to setup, but... certain studios calibrated certain channels "hotter" or "colder" on purpose. Due to the channels bleeding into each other, and maybe also because certain channels hotwired (like: drum bus constantly on channel 7/8 and vox on 9/10 of a 16-track machine)

You can find videos on Youtube how to calibrate large scale tape machines. And here this is also mentioned that an engineer had to calibrate the machine for each tape individually. And certain channels were either hotter or colder in terms of bias and reference level settings. So this might be something to consider.

Example:


A bonus on that behalf would be another panel, that shows how many channels were used, and how the reference levels are set up. I can dream, no?




The independent Input Gain might be bonus. But I'd love to see Reverence Level related settings at least.


That and...
- Lower tape speeds
- custom EQ for REC/REPRO head (to recreate the frequency response of elder devices)
- a noise mode (AC/DC noise, 50/60Hz incl. volume control).


Actually...
I might be able to create another technical preset - for the Grundig TK747 (4,75cm = 1.87ips, 3,75ips and 7,5ips machine!). I do have a data sheet here for it (but it lacks the crosstalk info... hm...).

[jensa]

If there will be a "lofi" mode, or "poly-satin" (plastic satin, as in... cheap and lofi) - I'd also love to see a hum mode introduced. 50/60Hz should be more than enough, with control over the volume of course. But I'm rather aiming at the Lower tape speeds and therefore EQ courves.

+1 for more Lofiey modes. Lovely sounding piece of mastery anyways. Thanks Urs and the gang!

[Basspartout]

Hello Urs,
I want to buy Satin, but cant find any info if I'm allowed to use it on more than one Computer. I have my WIN7 64bit Music PC in my Studio few blocks away which is not connected to the Internet and my home PC on XP 32bit which I use for uploading and testing and doing quick changes.
My Presouns Studio One License allows for installation on both machines, as does for example my license for Scuffham S-Gear Guitar PlugIn.
How is it with Satin?
Greetings from around the corner (Moabit)
Sascha (Basspartout)