The PyDAW thread!

[jeffh]

Hello Linux0s

jeffh: What version of VirtualBox are you using for this?

I've only tested it on very recent ones, 4.2.12 and 4.2.18 IIRC, but it worked well in both Windows and Linux(some configurations work better if the Virtualbox audio device config is tweaked, but that's solely dependent on the machine and it's hardware).

Are the Guest Additions pre-installed or just included along with the download?

Guest additions are pre-installed, and AFAIK they are the ones that come from 4.2.12...

I've been steadfastly clinging to my old "repository" 4.1.12 version of VirtualBox mostly because Oracle seemed to be updating it a bit too frequently for my infrequent use.

I've found that the Virtualbox in Ubuntu12.04 repos is pretty broken, I actually installed a more current one from virtualbox.org.

I'm sure you're using a more current version which may explain some of the problems I experienced.

If I had to guess, it's mostly to do with the guest additions being too new. You could probably just reinstall the guest additions and that might fix it...

I found the VM starts and PyDAW launches just fine. But the shared folder created through VB could not be accessed (nor could a removable USB drive).

I think this is more with the mismatch of old Virtualbox + new guest additions.

And while the VM shows internet connectivity Midori wouldn't resolve any web pages. Repository lists are retrieved though although I couldn't complete the steps to install anything.

Hmmm.... Maybe make sure in Virtualbox that the PyDAW VM is using a valid network adapter? Let me know if that worked, I may need to update my instructions with that info...

Anyway as a result of the above I wasn't able to actually get an audio file into PyDAW.

Try the above fix... If that doesn't work, I'm more than happy to continue troubleshooting this with you. Using Virtualbox is a fairly radical approach to cross-platform-ness and portability for something like a DAW, I'm committed to proving that it can work

But it sure looks nice.

Thanks

Not asking for troubleshooting here mind you, beyond what version of VirtualBox you are using. The reason I ask about Guest Additions is the repository prompts if you want to install them (which I know it will also do if they are already installed). I'd been looking at PyDAW for a while now and followed the other "big" thread for quite some time. After giving it a go I was rather surprised to find network connectivity/shared folders didn't work "out of the box" as it's probably been 5 years or so since I've experienced a "live" distribution where both didn't just work without doing anything special. That's when the thought occurred "Well you're not using the most recent version of VirtualBox here either". System alerts produced sound but that's all the audio I could really test.

No worries, I'm here to help

In your Read Me for updates you say "open Midori (the green leaf icon on the left)" which I'm sure there was when you wrote that... but it wasn't there on the .ova I downloaded... I had to hunt for it.

Doh! Good catch. When I ported PyDAW from Python2 to Python3, I respun the .ova so that the extra Python2 dependencies wouldn't make the image bigger(and forgot to put that back on the launcher). I added it back in the master copy, it will be there next time I repost the .ova. Thanks for the heads-up.

Speaking of which, is there no easy menu type access to Applications from the desktop? I sure didn't see any or a simple way to enable such. I think that alone would drive me nuts.

You mean like in Windows7/KDE/etc... traditional type start-button and menu? Ubuntu has that the Unity launcher button on the top-left, but you do have to click through a few menus to see apps(or else you can just search for what you want). I'm evaluating replacing Ubuntu with a more traditional desktop OS like Lubuntu or Xubuntu, mostly because the 3d compositing using that's forced on in Ubuntu12.10+ wastes too much CPU in a VM and looks a bit choppy.

The only way I could quickly verify what software was installed was through the repository list. A newer user would be lost here and I admit I still don't know how the various applications are intended to be easily launched (other than PyDAW itself). The first jaunt into the Ubuntu Software Center of course comes up with a list of updates to the installed software but since this is a "custom" VM configuration I wasn't sure if it was safe to let it update or not....

It's safe to add and remove stuff. I slimmed down the install by removing Libreoffice and Thunderbird, and replacing Firefox with Midori, but I only did that because Sourceforge.net has a 1GB limit on file uploads

for all I know this could replace a real-time kernel or something

I don't rely on exotic kernel features that aren't enabled by default in distros, as an official policy. Everything is done with the stock Ubuntu kernel.

Actually, this past week I've been working hard on improving ultra-low-latency performance, and I dare say the results are astounding. I was able to run a project at 32samples of latency (<1ms) @ 44100hz on a crappy $70USD Alesis IO2 Express USB interface... but, what was more impressive was that I did it with all 8 CPU cores enabled (AMD FX8350)... (usually ultimate low latency is best had with only 1 core enabled(in PyDAW's settings, not your BIOS), because of what's called a "context switch" in a CPU being a very slow operation).

What's best is that it's all just user-land hacks, not crazy kernel modules or experimental options that no sane distro would enable by default.

with an incremental update that kills everything.

Incremental updates are the bane of computers everywhere, they've been known to obliterate Windows, Linux and Mac computers before

Might want to mention something about updates in the Read Me.

Good idea, I'm on it...

Oh, and the default password... yes I know it's pretty easy...
Username: pydaw
Password: ***** (think real hard now)
Might want to add that to the read me too (unless it's some kind of sly IQ test).

I thought it was in there? **runs off to check**

I'll probably try PyDAW again in the future although as fast as you produce updates (which I admit is a little intimidating when a newer version is ready before your download finishes, haha)

Fast and furious wins the race

I may just wait for your "next big thing" which you've been hinting about. Any new word on that?

Yeah, the technologies I'm perfecting in PyDAW now are part of that strategy... PyDAWv4 is coming soon, with some serious next-gen audio engine business and other improvements (especially to the plugins). All of that stuff will plug right into "the other DAW"(tm), and my Jack alternative is within easy striking distance of being finished because of all of my recent work in refining my audio engine and having it use ALSA for audio.

However, PyDAW will continue to be aimed at EDM, the other stuff more at traditional recorded genres. So if you make EDM, PyDAW is probably going to continue being the better choice.

I'm also anxious to see if VM is the way of the future for the project or not.

Well, for Windows and Mac it will be(but running Linux is better if all of your hardware works). I experimented with native Windows ports using MinGW and Cygwin, but came to the conclusion that Virtualbox + a .ova was actually almost a perfect way to be cross-platform, and that it would probably always work better than a native port.

When PyDAW used Jack, it was unusable in a VM and could actually crash the VM, but when I went with ALSA, suddenly I had the only DAW in the world that was stable and performs well when virtualized. Windows DAWs can't do this, because it's just not feasible to distribute a full copy of Windows with your software, so that's a real advantage.

Anyway one can easily see and appreciate the tremendous effort you've put into this project thus far and cannot help but hold excitement for the great things yet to come.

Thanks a lot, it's good to hear it

P.S. A little while back I gave your "nemesis" KXStudio

OMG, I stopped keeping up with Mr. Filipe & the crew a long time ago...

a spin and installed it onto a removable USB. Stupid installer promptly added the USB drive to the GRUB on my system drive (and no, I wasn't asked) and quickly found I couldn't boot my regular Linux system drive without that USB drive in place. Now I normally take the precaution of unplugging all other drives when installing a fresh OS for this exact reason but I didn't in this case because I could think of no logical reason why a USB install (using a "USB Install "menu prompt) would do such a thing. It wasn't an insurmountable problem but I did have to download/burn a rescue disc to fix it. Grrrr! That was it. Never again

Yeah, they all have some serious quality issues with their software... but they will insult you and slander your good name if you try to tell them so, like

"If it's crashing, you must be doing it wrong", or
"Please post the output of these 20 commands, then we'll try to figure out what you're doing wrong", or
"No, Jack doesn't suck, but yo momma does!"

I think my m8 and legendary electronic music pioneer Kris "Thrash" Weston (early member of The Orb in the 90s, and official remixer for U2 and Depeche Mode) said it best in his official gearslutz Q&A here (and hopefully he doesn't mind the cross-post):

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9458279-post133.html

yes i am a bit of GNU/Linux geek. i have done an amount of sysadmin and hacking work. in fact im on mint right now typing this, not my favourite distro tho unfortunately there isnt anything good enough for me on linux yet to use it for music. its too fragmented, there are lots of problems it is something i will work on soon with Jeff Hubbard of Pydaw tho. i think he is one of the few gnu bods that isnt so invested in the questionable crap that is already in place that he can see things clearly. hes also technically very very good at his art.

The man himself speaks... What have Filipe and crew contributed to music?

(thought you might appreciate that).

I did

[kejkz]

way great, will try it finally and post my thoughts about it.

[jeffh]

way great, will try it finally and post my thoughts about it.

Awesome... Bring on the feedback... Good, bad or ugly, I can take it

@linux0s: Actually, what might be easiest to do is just download my PyDAW-OS .iso from here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/libmods ... /pydaw_os/

...and then create your own Virtualbox VM with it, and then install the guest additions on your own. (which is pretty much exactly what I'm doing when I create those .ova's, then I just run bleachbit and "export appliance").

[CoolColJ]

My 2 cents -

Please allow the ability to have multiple arrangements per project, using the same pools of patterns/sequences and plugins etc

For me this is what separates the mens from the boys


What I usually like to do is lay down a whole bunch of 4-16 bar loops/sequences/patterns.
Then jam against them and get more parts down.

Then I take these raw parts and start building a new structure, without disturbing the initial patterns and scratch pad arrangement.
Then I may lay down some longer linear parts against this new arrangement, like solos and what not.

If I need some extra parts, I can then return to the initial scratch pad setup and jam out some more, record more sequences, and then place them into the proper arrangement.


Not many DAW allow for this workflow. You usually end up having to do a lot of copying and pasting into folder tracks and what not in typical linear DAWs.
Even Abelton Live is terrible for this way of working...

[jeffh]

My 2 cents -

Please allow the ability to have multiple arrangements per project, using the same pools of patterns/sequences and plugins etc

For me this is what separates the mens from the boys

I thought it already did that? (unless I'm misunderstanding, which is possible )

What I usually like to do is lay down a whole bunch of 4-16 bar loops/sequences/patterns.
Then jam against them and get more parts down.

Then I take these raw parts and start building a new structure, without disturbing the initial patterns and scratch pad arrangement.
Then I may lay down some longer linear parts against this new arrangement, like solos and what not.

If I need some extra parts, I can then return to the initial scratch pad setup and jam out some more, record more sequences, and then place them into the proper arrangement.

Not many DAW allow for this workflow. You usually end up having to do a lot of copying and pasting into folder tracks and what not in typical linear DAWs.
Even Abelton Live is terrible for this way of working...

I'm pretty sure I've got you covered on that one...

In the PyDAW workflow:

1. Create a "region" in the song editor
2. Record MIDI items, and/or draw them in, and edit in the piano roll as needed
3. Create a new region that's a copy of the old region by creating a new region and checking the "copy from" checkbox and selecting the region to copy from
4. If you wish to un-ghost a copy of a MIDI item, right-click on it and choose "unlink" or "auto-unlink" to give it a new name
5. (multiple MIDI items can be edited as one by right-clicking and selecting "Edit multiple items as group")
6. Sequence/edit/mangle/time-stretch/fade/FX/split/pitch-shift audio items in the audio sequencer view
7. Profit

Then when you're done with the scratch-pad regions, just move them way off on the right side of the song editor out of your way. Also, there's plenty of ways to copy stuff between regions, but they all share a common set of plugins.

EDIT: The screenshots here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/libmodsynth
and
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/pydaw-by-pydaw

Can help you visualize what I was talking about...

(song editor is the thing at the top, the MIDI and audio sequencers are tabs at the bottom)

[jeffh]

With the sudden burst of interest today, I went ahead and released the new version I've been working on, and re-spun the .ova image with all of linux0s' suggestions...

What's new:

* Several different modes for opening the audio engine, including ones capable of super-duper low latency, even on a relatively crappy USB 1.1 interface.

* Some very nice performance improvements relating to multi-threading and scheduling, all without the need for enabling goofy experimental kernel options.

* Fixed some long-standing audio sequencing bugs relating to fades...

* Audio items now have a right-click option to open their path in the .wav file browser

* Probably other stuff I'm forgetting

All flavors are available here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/libmodsynth/files/

Enjoy

[Linux0s]

@linux0s: Actually, what might be easiest to do is just download my PyDAW-OS .iso from here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/libmods ... /pydaw_os/

...and then create your own Virtualbox VM with it, and then install the guest additions on your own. (which is pretty much exactly what I'm doing when I create those .ova's, then I just run bleachbit and "export appliance").

Downloading now... thanks! I'll give this a try before upgrading VirtualBox.

Appreciate your thorough reply as well. ~Linux0s

[jeffh]

Just a heads-up to users and potential users: I just uploaded a new release, which will likely be the last of the PyDAWv3 series...

I'm going to start working on the next major version, which I have some pretty ambitious plans for. I won't be posting a list of planned features (just in case I wind up not being able to deliver on some of them), but it should be a huge leap forward regardless. I really want to take my time and get this one right, so I also won't be attempting to estimate a release date (other than to say: perhaps months, but definitely not years).

[jeffh]

Crap... I found a regression in that last release where one rogue line of code caused all kinds of bizarre UI behavior when performing certain tasks...

The new version I just uploaded fixes the issue, to anybody who downloaded 13.10-3, please download the latest 13.10-4... Sorry for the inconvenience...

Also: I created a package for Ubuntu13.10(64 bit only), as the 12.04 package didn't work due to the Python version being bumped to 3.3...

[stanlea]

I tried an installation on debian, but it says that jack1 is needed... I have jack2 installed. Is there any good reason to go for jack1 ? I thought pyDAW wasn't using jack ???

[jeffh]

I tried an installation on debian, but it says that jack1 is needed... I have jack2 installed. Is there any good reason to go for jack1 ? I thought pyDAW wasn't using jack ???

You downloaded the latest version? PyDAW itself has been completely Jack-free for months now... PyDAW does have a dependency on Audacity though (it's the default external wav editor for editing samples), might Audacity be the package with a dependency on Jack?

Did you try to install a Ubuntu package, or the source package? For Debian, I would suggest using the source package and compiling like this:

Code: Select all

tar xvf pydaw*.tar.gz 
cd pydaw*/src
./ubuntu_deps.sh
make deps
./install_deb.sh

Or, of course, you could use

Code: Select all

tar xvf pydaw*.tar.gz 
cd pydaw*/src
./ubuntu_deps.sh
make deps
make
make install

[stanlea]

Thanks. I give a try and tell you.

OK : compilation went fine, but the dependencies were broken (due to Audacity dependency). After installing dependencies, it's ok but there's an issue with the window manager (gnome classic for me). There is no way to have the bottom of the window because there is no slider in the pyDAW window.

[jeffh]

Sorry, just saw your post, it didn't bump the thread because you edited instead of making a new post...

re: Audacity...

Today I actually removed Audacity as a dependency in the forthcoming PyDAWv4, because I'm replacing all of it's functionality with native functionality in PyDAW... But until PyDAWv4 is released, It's not too difficult to remove it as a dependency in PyDAWv3, you could just edit this file:

src/deb.py

, and search the file for the word "audacity" (should only occur once in that file), and remove it from that line of dependencies that looks like this:

Code: Select all

Depends: libasound2-dev, liblo-dev, libsndfile1-dev, libportmidi-dev, python3-pyqt4, python3, python3-scipy, python3-numpy, libsamplerate0-dev, libfftw3-dev, libcpufreq-dev

Then just run ./install_deb.sh again and it should work without Audacity, but any attempts to "Edit Sample in External Editor" will complain that Audacity isn't installed...

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here:

There is no way to have the bottom of the window because there is no slider in the pyDAW window.

Can you show me a screenshot? I've run PyDAW in Fedora 19 with Gnome3 without issues...

[jeffh]

Hi all,

A quick status update on PyDAWv4, and also a request for .sfz users:

PyDAWv4 is coming along great, and way ahead of schedule. The audio/MIDI engine was almost completely re-written for stable, low-latency, CPU-efficient operation that scales well across all of your CPU cores, and the sequencer and plugins have seen some really nice new features and workflow improvements.

EDIT: and also, very smooth sounding, 100% sample accurate automation...

Right now I'm testing everything thoroughly to ensure a flawless, bug-free release, but PyDAWv4 could be released as early as 2 weeks from now if I run out of bugs to fix.


.SFZ USERS, PLEASE READ: By popular demand, one of the last major features I'm working on for PyDAWv4 is .sfz support as several people requested in the other thread (via a converter that converts the .sfz file to Euphoria's file format).

Being that .sfz is uses a non-standard, poorly defined(, and seriously ugly) markup language, there are a lot of things that can go wrong and unaccounted for when parsing a file.

In order to ensure that PyDAW's sfz-to-Euphoria converter works flawlessly, I'm requesting your favorite .sfz files so that I can test them before the release. PLEASE SEND ME JUST THE .SFZ TEXT FILES, AND NOT THE SAMPLES THAT COME WITH THEM!!!! Also, DO NOT send me .SF2 files, that's not the same thing.

I have a random selection of .sfz files I'm testing, but I would like to ensure that this works perfectly when I release it rather than having to smooth out .sfz support over several releases as people (hopefully) report bugs.

Thanks

[codec_spurt]

Glad to see things coming along.

Just don't neglect those sharp sounding synths you got got going on there.