Does U-he seriously not have any sales/specials?

[Urs]

Thanks for those insights!

A lot of my reluctance wanting to deal with loyality bonusses is, there's no single best way to do things.

As for transferred licenses... so far we have treated transferred licenses like normal ones. As long as those make, say, less than 3% of all licenses, I see no need to change that. Implementing an exception just wouldn't be practical.

It's a complex issue. Keep your thoughts coming

[lofty]

...

[fluffy_little_something]

I guess many European customers would already be happy if they only had to pay the US price

[zerocrossing]

U-He sells software all the time, so it's for sale, right? And it's pretty special, so the sales are specials, no?

[Urs]

Well, hehe, we consider Uhbik, Zebra and Filterscape bundles. In a normal world any single Uhbik would easily go for 49$ or even more - which is a huge discount. Zebra and Filterscape are not as dramatic because of the conceptual overlap of the plug-ins included.

[michkhol]

Somehow I don't think customer loyalty can be bought for money as many here suggest. This is the kind of loyalty that will go to anyone who sells cheaper. I wouldn't want it if I were a developer. The idea that you have to pay more for a better job may be foreign to those who never tried to run a company but looking at money spent on a product as totally wasted is completely wrong. I shall explain. 'I spent XXXX euros already on your products, give me a discount to buy another one', many have said here. The first question I have is, don't you have and use the products you already bought? Isn't it a gratification enough? Or have they become so devalued in your eyes that you need an incentive? If so why buy from the same developer in the first place? You don't have to be proud of paying the full price, but the price you pay reflects your attitude to the one you do business with.

[pdxindy]

PSP and Fabfilter's loyalty programs aren't ideal, either, IMO. They're certainly a step in the right direction, but there is a slight issue. They give everyone the same discount whether or not they bought them directly from PSP/Fabfilter or at a 50% discount on the secondhand marketplace. It just seems odd that the same price would be given to someone who's been supporting them for years vs someone who just bought them all off someone at an insane rate due to financial issues/etc. If they bought them all of the developer directly then it makes more sense. Otherwise...not ideal, either. I much prefer what they've already been doing (offering an early-adopter discount, which is really a no-brainer purchase). I wouldn't change anything about it. I would just continue focus on great plugins. If people want to buy rock-bottom price plugins there are plenty of other options.

-Sam

Plus U-he already has a loyalty program (besides the introductory discount)... it is just not a direct dollar discount, but it is still there in the form of ongoing development that users get for no additional cost.

PSP has like 25 products and they have a different approach. More products, less updates and development on each. Most of their products, besides compatibility, new plug-in formats etc. do not have much new development. (which is fine and not meant as a criticism just an assessment of approach) There it makes more sense to have a loyalty discount on new products for existing customers.

Lots of companies put new development mainly into new products. U-he puts an unusual amount of new development back into existing products. And most of the time, that new development has no additional cost. That is a loyalty discount that adds up over time.

I purchased Zebra 2 back when it first came out. In the years since, Zebra has seen more improvements than most any available softsynth and those improvements have been given for free. There could easily have been 2 or even 3 paid updates over nearly 8 years.

Personally, I prefer it how it is... but if U-he is going to start offering additional discounts for existing users, then they should charge for updates like the new Diva update with new modules and arp.

[fluffy_little_something]

Somehow I don't think customer loyalty can be bought for money as many here suggest. This is the kind of loyalty that will go to anyone who sells cheaper. I wouldn't want it if I were a developer. The idea that you have to pay more for a better job may be foreign to those who never tried to run a company but looking at money spent on a product as totally wasted is completely wrong. I shall explain. 'I spent XXXX euros already on your products, give me a discount to buy another one', many have said here. The first question I have is, don't you have and use the products you already bought? Isn't it a gratification enough? Or have they become so devalued in your eyes that you need an incentive? If so why buy from the same developer in the first place? You don't have to be proud of paying the full price, but the price you pay reflects your attitude to the one you do business with.

I don't think that's the point. Most people probably do pay the full price despite there being no incentive.
Still, returning customers often do get some sort of bonus, that has been a rather old tradition in many industries. Similar to people buying larger quantities.

With big companies like U-he I don't really see any point in loyalty anyway, though. When I am loyal to some small developer who is grateful for every single license sold, it really means something to be loyal. And exactly in those cases I don't expect or want any incentives or bonuses, anyway.

[masterhiggins]

I disagree. I think at that stage we're entering the realm of textbook begrudgery.

For some reason I find the term begrudgery coming from you hilarious.

That a plugin can be re-sold helps it maintain value. If plugins couldn't be re-sold, they may not be purchased in the first place.

Really? Tell that to the people that have been trying to sell the same IK and Fxpansion licenses for the past 6 months. Being allowed to sell an IK Fairchild plugin for $20 (minus a $15 transfer fee) isn't my idea of value. Your definition may differ, though.

And when a plugin is re-sold, the purchaser shouldn't become a second class licensee.

If they get equal support, and the ability to resell a license...that's not a second-class licensee.

If you're inclined to be bothered by this, there's nothing stopping you holding out for a used license yourself. It's also a strange POV to hold considering I have so often seen your name in the marketplace, selling plugins,

Okay, first of all, my desire to buy and sell licenses has nothing to do with my opinion regarding loyalty programs. They are separate ideas and co-exist quite peacefully.

sometimes plugins you got for free. but hey, lets not dredge up the past

That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue, but thanks for your always-useful input.

A quick tip. Putting a smiley face emoticon at the end of your post doesn't make you sound like any less of an asshole. For example.

-Sam

[ChiTown24]

Somehow I don't think customer loyalty can be bought for money as many here suggest.

The loyalty isn't bought, it already exists. What's being referred to here is rewarding that loyalty, or at least recognising it enough not to trample on it {in the case of some developers, not referring to U-he here}

This is the kind of loyalty that will go to anyone who sells cheaper.

... nope. not true, not in my case at least. though the statement seems to be based on your idea that loyalty is bought, and that's not true either. In my case, I become loyal because of the quality of the products & service. What we're discussing here is what to do with that loyalty once it already exists.

The idea that you have to pay more for a better job may be foreign to those who never tried to run a company...

Again, not true. I'm not trying to shill for PSP & Fabfilter here - so apologies for making them my yardstick for this topic, but they make highly regarded plugins, consistently top class coding. Definitely top tier plugs. They are of course priced accordingly & reasonably, but yet they still offer significant discounts to loyal customers. How can that be ? Excellent products AND excellent prices ? Have we torn the fabric of time ?

what we come back to is, when the company keeps making extra instruments and fx, sometimes the loyal user already has some other plugins that cover that ground. there may be a lot of overlap. sure, the new plugin might have a few nice extras, but not enough to justify buying another plugin that does more-or-less the same thing as something you already own...which is also good quality. This is where customer loyalty prices start to pay dividends, and the user will buy the new plugin - despite the overlap - because the customer loyalty price makes it worthwhile. In my case, PSP & Fabfilter are definitely better off for having offered me a good price as I'd never have bothered with the plugin otherwise.

[ChiTown24]

I disagree. I think at that stage we're entering the realm of textbook begrudgery.

For some reason I find the term begrudgery coming from you hilarious.

Declare the reason if you can. Nevertheless, begrudgery is exactly the trait observed in the statement I replied to. Contest the observation if you can.

That a plugin can be re-sold helps it maintain value. If plugins couldn't be re-sold, they may not be purchased in the first place.

Really? Tell that to the people that have been trying to sell the same IK and Fxpansion licenses for the past 6 months. Being allowed to sell an IK Fairchild plugin for $20 (minus a $15 transfer fee) isn't my idea of value. Your definition may differ, though.

Supply & demand, exceptions notwithstanding, etc etc etc. 'helping' something maintain value is not the same thing is 'guaranteeing' it, much less guaranteeing a sale.

And when a plugin is re-sold, the purchaser shouldn't become a second class licensee.

If they get equal support, and the ability to resell a license...that's not a second-class licensee.

No, but that's not what you were begrudging. You were begrudging the fact they would be offered the same discount opportunities as a '1st class' licensee. We're talking about customer loyalty here, not support issues.

If you're inclined to be bothered by this, there's nothing stopping you holding out for a used license yourself. It's also a strange POV to hold considering I have so often seen your name in the marketplace, selling plugins,

Okay, first of all, my desire to buy and sell licenses has nothing to do with my opinion regarding loyalty programs. They are separate ideas and co-exist quite peacefully.

Sure it does. you have the opinion that someone who buys a 2nd-hand license should be a 2nd-class licensee with respect any customer loyalty programs offered. That is at the very least ironic considering your selling habits. Naturally your desires & your opinions co-exist. Not arguing against that. Just observing the irony. Life is full of ironies.
One could go a step further, maybe, and argue hypocrisy. If one were so inclined and were bothered enough. I'd rather swat flies.

sometimes plugins you got for free. but hey, lets not dredge up the past

That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue, but thanks for your always-useful input.

It goes back to the irony bit. Begrudging licensees for buying 2nd hand licenses, despite selling so many of them yourself and the fact that you've also sold and/or attempted to sell freebie/promotional licensees only adds a big juicy cherry on top of the irony cake. 'Irony' being the generous word for it

A quick tip. Putting a smiley face emoticon at the end of your post doesn't make you sound like any less of an asshole. For example.

-Sam

And you should know! Thanks for the tip

[michkhol]

Most people probably do pay the full price despite there being no incentive.

No argument here. People pay the price because they find it justified in their eyes, regardless how the price was actually calculated.

Still, returning customers often do get some sort of bonus, that has been a rather old tradition in many industries.

Software industry is different in a sense that products do not wear and tear and their maintenance (bugfixes and compatibility) is usually free for a reasonable time. You don't have to be in the market regularly to replace software because it "wears out". In the Urs' business model the bonus comes in the form of the free new features.

[Tp3]

If I were Urs, I would do the same (his strategy).

He (they) earned his pedigree, and can afford to differentiate himself from everybody else. and according to him, his customers are the kind of people he'd want to deal with, anyway... wheres more sale - besides more money - can potentially result in dealing with clients that would be tougher to deal with...

[fluffy_little_something]

Most people probably do pay the full price despite there being no incentive.

No argument here. People pay the price because they find it justified in their eyes, regardless how the price was actually calculated.

Still, returning customers often do get some sort of bonus, that has been a rather old tradition in many industries.

Software industry is different in a sense that products do not wear and tear and their maintenance (bugfixes and compatibility) is usually free for a reasonable time. You don't have to be in the market regularly to replace software because it "wears out". In the Urs' business model the bonus comes in the form of the free new features.

Not necessarily. Maybe they simply have no choice if they need the best stuff, despite thinking it is too expensive. That is why I said you can afford such a policy as long as your products are better than the competition's.

With other products you get a two-year warranty, and with hardware devices you usually get free software and firmware updates as well.


I personally don't think 200 dollars is too much for a great synth plugin, at least if you expect to keep it as an investment for years to come. I mean, what is the alternative? A hardware device, which usually costs way more, especially as you add instances.

Maybe the problem is that many amateurs want the best stuff, but can't really afford it. And those are also the ones who, if they buy it anyway, often discover that, surprise surprise, a super plugin doesn't make their music as such any better. Then they want to sell it again...

[michkhol]

In my case, I become loyal because of the quality of the products & service. What we're discussing here is what to do with that loyalty once it already exists.

If so you might be also appreciating the effort of all people that made this product a reality. You want to be recognized by them, fine, but won't you rather have more exciting products from them with the same quality and service? They will not ask from you more than a full price and some will even have an introductory discount.

Definitely top tier plugs. They are of course priced accordingly & reasonably, but yet they still offer significant discounts to loyal customers. How can that be ? Excellent products AND excellent prices ? Have we torn the fabric of time ?

Apparently the business model they use is good enough for them. I have no specific knowledge of their development business but if you have a substantial shared codebase it takes a very little effort to cook up different wrappings of basically the same thing.

This is where customer loyalty prices start to pay dividends, and the user will buy the new plugin - despite the overlap - because the customer loyalty price makes it worthwhile. In my case, PSP & Fabfilter are definitely better off for having offered me a good price as I'd never have bothered with the plugin otherwise.

This is in my opinion is an excellent illustration of the "loyalty for (less) money" model.