KVR Audio

antithesist · Post by **antithesist** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:31 am

We have Phoenix and R2 in the lab now as of the Pro Tools Expert "AES exclusive deal." They are both great, but I'd give phoenixverb the edge between the two for being less in cost and more original. I'd say PV is natural and transparent, though those aren't terms I use much. I suppose given one word, I would choose "unobtrusive."

We also have the SSL Duende X-Verb, which I would compare favorably with Phoenix. To me, X-Verb is to the LX480 as PV is to R2. Our Lexicon PCM and full Valhalla DSP suite plug-ins cover the territory between these two pairs, along with CSR, Eos, Toraverb, Eventide 2016 Stereo Room and others as orthogonal offshoots.

Flux/IRCAM, 2C and as mentioned, eareverb, are worthy neutral considerations that we don't have. I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere, right? Then, of course, there is convolution... not really my cup of tea for other than delayed real-time reverse reverb using algorithmically generated IRs. Although, this hybrid looks interesting:

http://www.supremepiano.com/product/reverb.html

Additional TC Electronic hardware to consider is the Reverb 4000 which covers VSS3/4 and other TC topologies.

Arrested Developer · Post by **Arrested Developer** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:56 am

toothnclaw wrote:I'd say don't use a second reverb just for ER, that would be an insult to Phoenix. Rather, just use something like Proximity by VladG.

Are you just guessing or did you do lots of tests with lots of reverbs in different situations?

toothnclaw · Post by **toothnclaw** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:04 am

Arrested Developer wrote:
toothnclaw wrote:I'd say don't use a second reverb just for ER, that would be an insult to Phoenix. Rather, just use something like Proximity by VladG.

Are you just guessing or did you do lots of tests with lots of reverbs in different situations?

It's just my humble opinion which I thought could be useful to someone. You could use all software reverbs chained on a single track if you wish, it's all the same to me.

Arrested Developer · Post by **Arrested Developer** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:14 am

toothnclaw wrote:
Arrested Developer wrote:
toothnclaw wrote:I'd say don't use a second reverb just for ER, that would be an insult to Phoenix. Rather, just use something like Proximity by VladG.

Are you just guessing or did you do lots of tests with lots of reverbs in different situations?
It's just my humble opinion which I thought could be useful to someone. You could use all software reverbs chained on a single track if you wish, it's all the same to me.

My question is: what's you're "humble" opinion based on which comes to the conclusion that using Phoenix together with additional ER of another engine would "insult" Phoenix? Are you familiar with the achieved results in different situations or are you just guessing?

Loki Fuego · Post by **Loki Fuego** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:07 am

Arrested Developer wrote:My question is: what's you're "humble" opinion based on which comes to the conclusion that using Phoenix together with additional ER of another engine would "insult" Phoenix? Are you familiar with the achieved results in different situations or are you just guessing?

It's impossible to be familiar with the results in every different situation, don't you find? So stop it. It was just an opinion not a statement of fact.

Arrested Developer · Post by **Arrested Developer** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:15 am

Loki Fuego wrote: It's impossible to be familiar with the results in every different situation, don't you find?

I think it's bad behaviour to judge constellations that one does not know.
But to answer your question: if one has a slight idea of the possibilities, Phoenix and True Verb give you in sculpting your sound, and if you are familiar with some basics in production techniques, you won't come up with such a statement.

and an insulting statement like:

You could use all software reverbs chained on a single track if you wish,

is just childish and not constructive.

stian · Post by **stian** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:51 am

Hi!

Tapehead wrote:As the title suggests, I have a question about the most natural reverb in VST format.

Since you bring up this issue, I wanted to let you know that we are working on a new algorithmic reverb plug-in called Acon Digital Verberate that is currently in beta stage. Verberate uses new methods to achieve very dense reverb tails combined with a realistic simulation of early reflections. Demo versions are available below (VST for Win32 and Win64 as well as AU and VST for OS X, respectively):

http://acondigital.com/software/beta/Ve ... _0_9_7.exe
http://acondigital.com/software/beta/Ve ... _0_9_7.exe
http://acondigital.com/software/beta/Ve ... 7.mpkg.zip

Any feedback is highly appreciated...

We expect to release in two to three weeks time.

Stian

Tapehead · Post by **Tapehead** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:30 pm

I'm currently very interested in how Flux/IRCAM session reverb stacks up against Phoenix in the transparency and "unobtrusive-nessy" department. Does it play in the same league as Phoenix?

I auditioned other suggestions in this thread and once again reverbs such as c2 and b2 are way too effected (effect-sy). Definitely not my cup of tea.

X-Verb is on the other hand is a bit of a surprise. Not that it is totally unobtrusive but it has some very pleasant vibe and it is flexible enough for my needs. I'd consider it if it was around $100 but closer to $200 I think
Phoenix looks much more appealing.

EAReverb is also seem to be good but I had a feel that there was something stiff about it. By all accounts, I should've liked it and it did sound good on my acoustic fingerpicking but not so inspiring. I felt like, OK, I can hear the space but I would not choose that space for my performance. I think this reverb would've been great with some 3d stage positioning like MIR...

This is 2013 and I was hoping that by this time somebody should've designed a loadable 3d stages where I can place my instruments and then add an auditorium of any desirable size ...and maybe even place some ghosts of an utterly captivated audience into it. In other words, something totally intuitive.

@Stian,
Can you please elaborate a bit more about the Verberate? What are the demo limitations?

Arrested Developer · Post by **Arrested Developer** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:02 pm

Tapehead wrote: This is 2013 and I was hoping that by this time somebody should've designed a loadable 3d stages where I can place my instruments and then add an auditorium of any desirable size ...and maybe even place some ghosts of an utterly captivated audience into it. In other words, something totally intuitive.

I would love to see Michael Carnes doing such a reverb (or just adding positioning features to Phoenix...)

Igro · Post by **Igro** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:19 pm

valhallasound wrote:I haven't heard a plugin reverb that is more transparent than Phoenix. It is clearly (to my ears) descended from the Lexicon lineage, but it has none of the "thickness" of the old hardware. Instead, it has a clear sound, without being bland. As a reverb developer, I'm REALLY impressed with Phoenix. It seems like the perfect candidate for your stated goals.

Sean Costello

Hi Sean! Do you have any plans to add "more transparent" algorithm to VRoom?

bill45 · Post by **bill45** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:24 pm

I think vienna MIR lets you place your instruments.

valhallasound · Post by **valhallasound** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:30 pm

Igro wrote:
valhallasound wrote:I haven't heard a plugin reverb that is more transparent than Phoenix. It is clearly (to my ears) descended from the Lexicon lineage, but it has none of the "thickness" of the old hardware. Instead, it has a clear sound, without being bland. As a reverb developer, I'm REALLY impressed with Phoenix. It seems like the perfect candidate for your stated goals.

Sean Costello
Hi Sean! Do you have any plans to add "more transparent" algorithm to VRoom?

Nope. I might add other algorithms to ValhallaRoom, but they will sound like ValhallaRoom algorithms.

Arrested Developer · Post by **Arrested Developer** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:38 pm

bill45 wrote:I think vienna MIR lets you place your instruments.

Yes, but i have to deal with the way their rooms/halls sound.
It's great from a technical point of view, but i miss the magic...

antithesist · Post by **antithesist** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:57 am

Tapehead: I went back and read your original post. I also went through most of the reverbs I mentioned with an emphasis on non-effect sounds. I think Phoenix is what you're after that's available as a native plug-in. That is, if it works for you. There are two that I forgot to mention: Virsyn Reflect and the Sonnox Oxford Reverb. Reflect is probably too effect-y, and the Sonnox is a weird one, but it can evoke a particular sense of space. I suppose the upcoming surround version of phoenixverb might be better positioning-wise, even in stereo. Honestly, you can do a lot the old-fashioned way by pan matching for L-R placement, and send amount for depth/distance.

stian · Post by **stian** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:02 am

Tapehead wrote:Can you please elaborate a bit more about the Verberate? What are the demo limitations?

Thanks for the interest!

The demos have occasional audio drop-outs. I think the difference between Verberate and the others is best illustrated by listening to and looking at the impulse response obtained from Verberate ("Large Hall" preset, source placed in the center):
http://acondigital.com/audio/Verberate_ ... ll_M-S.wav

You can measure the impulse responses of other reverb plug-ins easily using a dirac pulse (simply apply reverb (all wet) to this file and normalize): http://acondigital.com/audio/Dirac_M.wav

Most digital reverbs don't come close to real measurements, which is not necessarily bad, but not realistic. Artistically spoken, reverbs without the sufficient density and realistic early reflections don't blend in, but sound "on top".

Please bear in mind, that Verberate is a true stereo processor, so a four channel impulse response would be required for a faithful reproduction using a convolution reverb, modulations set aside.

Stian

Phoenix and the others./ Search for the most Natural reverb