FM synth with VA operators?

[BlackWinny]

This isn't completely accurate. There are useful ways to do FM on analog stuff, but it's perhaps more limited.

Once more, it is the same confusion between the simple Frequency Modulation and the FM Synthesis.

FM synthesis needs very stable frequences. And precisely the analogue components were too much unstable (and it's precisely the reason of the so beautiful sound of the analogue old stuff)!

It's not for nothing that it has been necessary to wait so many years to see appear the FM Synthesis more than 14 years after the writing of the book!

At Standford and at the IRCAM John Chowning was able to make applications of his FM theory (it is him who invented it) only with experimental components (the very first logic gates AND, OR, NAND, NOR, and XOR) and with the total inability to produce components able to be distributed on the market!

[BlackWinny]

I certainly don't claim to be any kind of synthesis expert. I recently read this article, check the last paragraph:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may00/a ... /synth.htm

Anyway, just asking questions here, not trying to argue about FM history, which I know practically nothing about. Thanks for the Chowning book link though I will definitely have a look at that when I get some more time.

Therefore, first read this book (it is absolutely enthralling for students) and you'll see that you'll never make anymore this huge confusion.

[BlackWinny]

I certainly don't claim to be any kind of synthesis expert. I recently read this article, check the last paragraph:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may00/a ... /synth.htm

Anyway, just asking questions here, not trying to argue about FM history, which I know practically nothing about. Thanks for the Chowning book link though I will definitely have a look at that when I get some more time.

Therefore, first read this book (it is absolutely enthralling for students) and you'll see that you'll never make anymore this huge confusion.

And I add that Ingo is right: even Yamaha themselves have been obligated to make something which was not exactly the FM Synthesis! Because even in 1980 when the IC component aimed to be the heart of the DX series was out, it was not still stable enough in the labs! So they had to make some infrigements with the theory! And it was imperative to provide the first FM DX on the market on 1982 for reasons of investments that they could loose because of two other new synthesis which could take all the market (the PD synthesis and the PCM synthesis)! Some of the publications of these hard years of researches at the Yamaha laboratories are still available on the web! Between 1978 (the beginning of the researches at the Yamaha Labs) and Februar 1982 (the birth of the DX7 on the market), Yamaha has got huge cold sweats!

I was 20 exactly at this years and working myself in laboratories (for biology but already totally enthralled by the keyboard music and the synths and living myself in a family of musicians) I have lived all this in the present.

[pdxindy]

This isn't completely accurate. There are useful ways to do FM on analog stuff, but it's perhaps more limited.

Once more, it is the same confusion between the simple Frequency Modulation and the FM Synthesis.

FM synthesis needs very stable frequences.

No it doesn't... you just wont get pitch accurate results... but the synthesis method is the same.

[pdxindy]

But unfortunately none are really what the OP was asking for. These three are distinctly digital. He was asking for analog style with fm.

Bazille must be exactly what the OP is looking for:

"hybrid modular system: digital oscillators, analogue filters - unlimited patching capabilities".

Bazille is like Terminator: cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton

Indeed... Bazille is like an FM Analog Modular... with polyphony and the ability to save presets!

[BlackWinny]

This isn't completely accurate. There are useful ways to do FM on analog stuff, but it's perhaps more limited.

Once more, it is the same confusion between the simple Frequency Modulation and the FM Synthesis.

FM synthesis needs very stable frequences.

No it doesn't... you just wont get pitch accurate results... but the synthesis method is the same.

Pfff... It's like to talk to a wall.

Read the book, and you'll understand what is the FM synthesis, and that it has nothing to do with the Frequency Modulation, in its application as well as in its principles.

But is is totally useless to talk to a wall...

[Dewdman42]

Relax BW. Can you please explain what is different? I am actually very interested, but admit it will be quite some time before I will have time to read this book.

My understand is the same as PDX, frequency modulation is frequency modulation. I think its just probably what we are talking about is that doing any kind of FM synthesis with analog sources would quickly lead to atonal noise due to a requirement for precision in the sine waves and the way they are operated against each other. Creating a keyboard that will track up and down the keyboard and play musical lines would in fact require this precision, because as has been pointed out, even slight differences in amplitude on one of the operators can throw the overall tone out of tune.

My interest in FM at the moment is more along the lines of creating growls using FM, which is low enough frequency that I think it could probably be done with an analog source, but I could be wrong, might run into tuning problems with that as well

[xh3rv]

This isn't completely accurate. There are useful ways to do FM on analog stuff, but it's perhaps more limited.

Once more, it is the same confusion between the simple Frequency Modulation and the FM Synthesis

I'm well aware if Chowning's work, have read it. These are torturous semantics - how are 'FM' and 'frequency modulation' different things? It's better to let those refer to either digital or analog variants, and say digital FM, Chowning-style FM, or PM when it's important to draw a distinction. That really is how it's usually discussed.

[mystran]

This isn't completely accurate. There are useful ways to do FM on analog stuff, but it's perhaps more limited.

Once more, it is the same confusion between the simple Frequency Modulation and the FM Synthesis.

FM synthesis needs very stable frequences. And precisely the analogue components were too much unstable (and it's precisely the reason of the so beautiful sound of the analogue old stuff)!

Stability is hardly an issue. First of all, high quality modular analog VCOs are actually pretty stable, and secondly a little bit of drift here and there just adds some movement to the spectra that usually just makes the result sound a bit less artificial. Whether that's what you want is another thing, but it's not like the FM synthesis somehow breaks down from the tiniest detune; it'll only really start breaking down when the beating starts getting into the audible range and if your VCO is unstable enough that this is a serious problem, then it probably needs some maintenance.

The bigger problem is that the average analog oscillator, if it provides linear frequency control at all, will simply stop when you sweep it down to zero where as often for FM synthesis it's necessary to actually go "through zero" into the negative frequencies and back. Especially the hugely popular saw-core designs make through-zero near impossible (or at least ridiculously complex) to support.. a bit less of a problem if you start with a triangle-core instead (I think some of those advertise through-zero capability), but those aren't quite as popular (probably because the core ends up a bit more complex).

Anyway, these days there now exists modular analog VCOs specifically designed for FM synthesis so obviously at least someone thinks that FM synthesis in analog is possible (if you have the cash, at least).

[pdxindy]

Anyway, these days there now exists modular analog VCOs specifically designed for FM synthesis so obviously at least someone thinks that FM synthesis in analog is possible (if you have the cash, at least).

It's like $1000 for an Osc right?

[pdxindy]

My interest in FM at the moment is more along the lines of creating growls using FM, which is low enough frequency that I think it could probably be done with an analog source, but I could be wrong, might run into tuning problems with that as well

You should download the Bazille beta (fully functional)... It can do FM, Linear FM, Through-Zero, PM, PD and combine them. It is a great playground for exactly what you are asking about... and you can save presets and later go analog if you want.

Bazille is great for growls, grunts, nature sounds, animal cries... (takes some work to learn how to do this sort of stuff) it can give gorgeous organic results. It is also just a straight up bass synth monster.

Here are a few more Bazille sounds...

http://draigathar.org/sounds/B39.mp3
http://draigathar.org/sounds/B32.mp3
http://draigathar.org/sounds/B14.mp3 (deep low end)
http://draigathar.org/sounds/B38.mp3

of course it can do 'normal' stuff too

[mystran]

Anyway, these days there now exists modular analog VCOs specifically designed for FM synthesis so obviously at least someone thinks that FM synthesis in analog is possible (if you have the cash, at least).

It's like $1000 for an Osc right?

I don't think anyone ever claimed that modular synthesis was cheap.

But yeah, it's about the cost of two regular (premium) VCOs. There are a few cheaper designs though, just google for "thru-zero VCO" or something (and a bunch of better VCOs that can't do "thru-zero" can still do linear FM). I think the main point I wanted to make was that various people have actually built hardware capable of addressing the main problems with analog FM synthesis.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Titlke of the thread: "FM synth with VA operators?" (The operator is an oscillator)

...does anyone know if there is a synth which can do FM synthesis, using oscillators that are a little more virtual analog instead of pure digital?

Bazille must be exactly what the OP is looking for:

"hybrid modular system: digital oscillators, analogue filters - unlimited patching capabilities".

Maybe we are reading a different thread or something?

[Kaboom75]

But unfortunately none are really what the OP was asking for. These three are distinctly digital. He was asking for analog style with fm.

Bazille must be exactly what the OP is looking for:

"hybrid modular system: digital oscillators, analogue filters - unlimited patching capabilities".

Bazille is like Terminator: cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton

Ra ha ha ah a I like that analogy I got Bazille tonight as a perfect companion to DIVA but I'm too drunk to read the labels on it. The new GUI is awesome can't wait to use it tomorrow when I'm feeling nearly normal.

[Kaboom75]

Titlke of the thread: "FM synth with VA operators?" (The operator is an oscillator)

...does anyone know if there is a synth which can do FM synthesis, using oscillators that are a little more virtual analog instead of pure digital?

Bazille must be exactly what the OP is looking for:

"hybrid modular system: digital oscillators, analogue filters - unlimited patching capabilities".

Maybe we are reading a different thread or something?

Bazille uses DigitaL fm oscillators but they have that analogue sound about them and they are used in a vintage modular analogue way. also has a sound no other synth has.