All right-- I'm gonna ask about levels

[Lunch Money]

Well, it's like this-- I've been working with Tracktion for several months now, and I largely forget what it was like to use any other software (I only tried Cakewalk Express, CMuzys, and a.. er... demo of Cubase VST 5.x) so I have no basis for comparison.

The problem or concern is this:

I always manage to find a way to balance levels for everything, but I find I have to make heavy use of compressors and occassionally jack the level filter way up. I can't seem to figure out how to adjust all my 'gear' (virtual or real) so that they're operating within the same basic range (-6 to -3db would be nice) BEFORE having to use compressors and other plugins to get them to work together. Here's a brief rundown of what I can't get my head around:

-The mixer is a basic Behringer 802. It's not fancy, but it works. I don't expect to be looking at the level meters here, and I don't imagine they'd be too useful (4 leds... 2 green, 1 yellow, 1 red) anyhow. But it seems to me that in order to not overload my soundcard, I have to set my levels so that I either see NO LED movement, or I see the occassional blip on the first green. Into the second green, and I sometimes clip at the soundcard.

-Soundcard: Audiophile 2496 (PCI). This is the first place I look to make sure I get a decent audio signal path. I check the meters to make sure I'm not clipping. Since digital clip is at 0 db, that means that the 'yellow' zone starts at around -12db. So now I'm already WAY below my desired 'working' range. It's easily worked around by adjusting levels within Tracktion, but the meters in Tracktion don't match the meters in the soundcard's mixer software... so sometimes I'm clipping the card, but I'm not showing a 'clip' in the software, so I record an entire track before realizing that I have my mixer's ouputs too hot or my soundcard's mixer adjusted poorly.

-VSTi: why do they only tickle the level meters? Do I need to dig into my MIDI keyboard (admittedly, a consumer keyboard by Yamaha not strictly meant for computer recording, but with that option as an advertised feature) to get it to output a different velocity curve? Even when I hammer the key and assume I'm sending a value of 127, and trigger the appropriate sample for 127, the meters barely burp. Then I have to crank up the levels (which only helps a little) and add some compression with a level boost (courtesy of Blockfish) to hear anything. Surely the compression is mucking about with the actual sound of the synth?

-I tried increasing the sample rate of the soundcard, but I don't think this actually gives me any more headroom. If I remember right, increasing the resolution rather than the sample rate (to something beyond 16-bit) will help to avoid clipping, but that option doesn't even appear in the soundcard's software... where the heck do I adjust it? Or is it always at its maximum? I've always assumed I'm in 16-bit for some illogical reason.

Now, I realize this is all very basic newbie-type stuff that I should have sorted out a long time ago, but since I've always managed to 'work with it', it hasn't bothered me too much. But now that I'm trying to use more VSTi (sfz and Natural Studio, DS-404, pianos) I finally NEED to get things sorted out. I'd appreciate any help you folks could give me.

Greg

[IIRs]

But it seems to me that in order to not overload my soundcard, I have to set my levels so that I either see NO LED movement, or I see the occassional blip on the first green. Into the second green, and I sometimes clip at the soundcard.

-Soundcard: Audiophile 2496 (PCI). This is the first place I look to make sure I get a decent audio signal path. I check the meters to make sure I'm not clipping. Since digital clip is at 0 db, that means that the 'yellow' zone starts at around -12db. So now I'm already WAY below my desired 'working' range. It's easily worked around by adjusting levels within Tracktion, but the meters in Tracktion don't match the meters in the soundcard's mixer software... so sometimes I'm clipping the card, but I'm not showing a 'clip' in the software, so I record an entire track before realizing that I have my mixer's ouputs too hot or my soundcard's mixer adjusted poorly.

PC or Mac? If Mac, the following may be bullshit

It sounds like you have your soundcard inputs set to -10 dBV or "consumer" levels: Open the card's control panel, click the Hardware Settings tab, and check the input levels are set to +4dBu.

The soundcard mixer is only really for zero-latency monitoring purposes (which you can do with your h/w mixer anyway): if you record the input directly it will have no effect on the result.

Even when I hammer the key and assume I'm sending a value of 127, and trigger the appropriate sample for 127, the meters barely burp.

But are you actually sending velocities of 127? Record yourself playing hard, and look at the velocities in the piano roll: if these are significantly less than full scale you may need to adjust velocity settings on your controller / insert a vol/pan filter with "apply to midi velocities" ticked / get a new MIDI keyboard.

I've always assumed I'm in 16-bit for some illogical reason.

24 bit: that doesn't guarantee no clipping however, merely that quieter signals retain more resolution.
32 bit float provides extra headroom (and all serious apps use it internally) but this need to be dithered down to 24 or 16 bit integer before a soundcard can deal with it.

[Jeremy_NSL]

Ok, not too sure if I can help, but I have a very similar setup so I'll try (Behringer UB502 mixer into an Audiophile 2496).

First, to record 24-bit audio you need to go to the inputs/outputs page in Tracktion, select the recording device and you can change bit depth from 16 to 24-bit. That likely won't help you a whole lot though.

Next, make sure your M-Audio mixer levels are all at 100%, then check to make sure in 'hardware settings' that you don't have your outputs set to -10dBV. Also click on the recording device in Tracktion and make sure the level gain is set to 0db.

Now turn up the volume all the way on whatever you are recording. Then, on the mixer turn both gain and main mix to 12 oclock, and then increase the channel level till you are close to 0db with a 127 velocity note.

As for vsti, some are quiter than others, but most shouldn't have to use compression just to get to a decent level. Which vsti are you having problems with?

[Jeremy_NSL]

Oh and btw, did you know you can stack two or more volume/pan filters on the same track to get 12+db amplification? It helpful for quiet vsti, especially if you don't want to compress the signal.

[Lunch Money]

It sounds like you have your soundcard inputs set to -10 dBV or "consumer" levels: Open the card's control panel, click the Hardware Settings tab, and check the input levels are set to +4dBu.

I'm sure I'm just being pedantic, but +4 is "consumer" level, not the other way around. In this page, the only option to select between pro and consumer levels is for the output, which I have selected as "consumer" since it outputs to *cough and blush* some Altec Lansing computer speakers. It's easy enough to plug the speakers into the mixer and use the mixer to switch between the speakers or headphones. If that's the case, should I be using -10db or "consumer" as my output?

Either way, I'm not sure this will affect incoming audio and MIDI, but it IS still something I'd like to clear up.

The soundcard mixer is only really for zero-latency monitoring purposes (which you can do with your h/w mixer anyway): if you record the input directly it will have no effect on the result.

OK, easy enough. Is it still important to make sure that these meters aren't clipping? I've always assumed so, since they're what monitor the inputs directly, with no other software in the way.

But are you actually sending velocities of 127? Record yourself playing hard, and look at the velocities in the piano roll: if these are significantly less than full scale you may need to adjust velocity settings on your controller / insert a vol/pan filter with "apply to midi velocities" ticked / get a new MIDI keyboard.

Thanks for the idea... so simple, and yet since I rarely work with MIDI, I hadn't actually checked yet. As it turns out, when I hit the keys hard, I'm getting around 115, which is still in the upper reaches. When I lay into the keys, I get about 122 or 124. Couldn't quite trigger 127, but it's safe to say I'm sending reasonably appropriate values, even if the response curve may be not quite up to snuff.

24 bit: that doesn't guarantee no clipping however, merely that quieter signals retain more resolution.
32 bit float provides extra headroom (and all serious apps use it internally) but this need to be dithered down to 24 or 16 bit integer before a soundcard can deal with it.

OK, I'll keep that in mind. Cheers!

First, to record 24-bit audio you need to go to the inputs/outputs page in Tracktion, select the recording device and you can change bit depth from 16 to 24-bit. That likely won't help you a whole lot though.

OK, well I'll give it a try anyhow. With the simplicity of the stuff I usually work on, it couldn't hurt to use a few more cycles to record in a higher resolution anyhow.

Next, make sure your M-Audio mixer levels are all at 100%, then check to make sure in 'hardware settings' that you don't have your outputs set to -10dBV. Also click on the recording device in Tracktion and make sure the level gain is set to 0db.

OK. A question-- if in the M-Audio panel, I adjust the input to -12db, would I adjust the Tracktion gain -12db (mirroring it), or would that compound and make my net result -24db? That's what seems to be the case, so would I use +12 to "balance" it out? I guess what I'm getting at is-- is there any benefit to adjusting the Audiophile's input gain level, or should I just leave it at 0 and have done with it?

Now turn up the volume all the way on whatever you are recording. Then, on the mixer turn both gain and main mix to 12 oclock, and then increase the channel level till you are close to 0db with a 127 velocity note.

This is where you've lost me a little. The mixer is dealing strictly with audio, no? My microphone and guitar. How can adjusting the mixer affect the levels of my VSTi?

As for vsti, some are quiter than others, but most shouldn't have to use compression just to get to a decent level. Which vsti are you having problems with?

So far, it WAS all of them. But for some reason, in the midst of the changes I'm making on yours and platinumears' suggestions, I'm getting proper levels. I dunno which parameter change did it. In fact, I'm actually getting "clipping" now with the Natural Studio kit. Not audible, and it's likely not actually clipping (another niggle... I'd hate it if clip indicators came on when I haven't truly clipped any signal). Since it's MIDI data triggering a controlled sample, how can it be clipping? In any case, my master volume wasn't indicating a clip because it was set to -3db.

Is -3db a standard setting? I don't remember ever changing it. I don't mind either way, I'd just like to know.

Thanks to both for your replies. It's really helping so far.

[Lunch Money]

Oh and btw, did you know you can stack two or more volume/pan filters on the same track to get 12+db amplification? It helpful for quiet vsti, especially if you don't want to compress the signal.

It makes sense, but I had never actually tried before. Thanks for the tip! Hopefully I won't need it after sorting this out here.


EDIT: update... I'm dumb... the reason I was getting decent levels from the DS-404 was because I had the channel set for +6db (and hence the 'clipped' sample). Putting it back to 0, and I'm still getting weak Natural Studio sounds, but I'm getting proper signals from most other VSTi. So, the problem likely isn't with my settings (and I NEVER thought it was with Tracktion) but with the samples and/or the way they're programmed into the DS-404. The CM-505 is just fine.

[IIRs]

OK. A question-- if in the M-Audio panel, I adjust the input to -12db, would I adjust the Tracktion gain -12db (mirroring it), or would that compound and make my net result -24db? That's what seems to be the case, so would I use +12 to "balance" it out? I guess what I'm getting at is-- is there any benefit to adjusting the Audiophile's input gain level, or should I just leave it at 0 and have done with it?

I suggest you forget the soundcard mixer entirely:
If you record an ASIO input to a track in Tracktion you are DIRECTLY recording the input.. the mixer channel does not affect it (and would reduce the quality if it did).

Your best bet is probably to leave all the channels muted in the soundcard monitor mixer, and use the Behringer to set up monitor mixes.

The best way to monitor your input levels is to select the relevant input icon in Tracktion: a nice big meter appears at the bottom of the screen..

[Lunch Money]

Sounds good. If I understand what you're saying, then even when my meters in the Audiophile's mixer appear in the red, as long as my Tracktion's input meter isn't clipping, I'm still fine.

Greg

[Jeremy_NSL]

OK. A question-- if in the M-Audio panel, I adjust the input to -12db, would I adjust the Tracktion gain -12db (mirroring it), or would that compound and make my net result -24db? That's what seems to be the case, so would I use +12 to "balance" it out? I guess what I'm getting at is-- is there any benefit to adjusting the Audiophile's input gain level, or should I just leave it at 0 and have done with it?

There is no need to balance with the M-Audio mixer. Just set it to 100% and use the Tracktion gain.

This is where you've lost me a little. The mixer is dealing strictly with audio, no? My microphone and guitar. How can adjusting the mixer affect the levels of my VSTi?

Well you seemed to be saying in your first post that you were getting low levels recording audio(ie you talk about the led level meters on the behringer), as well as with vsti. If your analog recording levels are ok, then I misunderstood.

[Lunch Money]

I think the main problem I was getting with audio was clipping, not low levels. The main problem was getting VSTi levels high enough to match the audio.

Regardless, the rest of your tips were more than helpful-- I discovered setup stuff I hadn't considered or seen before!

Greg