A rise of "Page 22" (post by Jan) rubbish in the Cafe?

[DSmolken]

Good argument, and all I can say is that while commercially produced music may be a neccecary evil

Is it really evil? Music which makes women dance makes the world a better place.

[nineofkings]

But they're still people with great songwriting skills, nineofkings or EmeraldTablet for example...

Please, we're in public

[farlukar]

I just checked the Cafe and I didnt see anything posted by edm. Does he/she use a different handle on KVR perhaps?

He has a few sockpuppet accounts - tarnce, tracne, wobblebass, thedrop, etc.

ecnart, knurc

[JonSolo]

I think if those artists hated the results it seems to have been wrong for them.

Far be it from me to say what's wrong for you. I think you have identified an issue though. Are you happier to talk down, essentially, to people, in order for their approbation? You actually used the term "dumb down"; is that right for you?

"self-serving" looks like a pejorative framing, and you go further to imply the people that would do, let me frame it 'music qua music' are basically losers.
So you throw up a straw man by which your 'I dumbed it down...'
'but people are happier with me' look better, or even seem the better way to be. So you're convinced?

I didn't find this a persuasive argument at all.

My comment (not an argument) was that there is no right and wrong in MOTIVE. Maybe personally you feel like a move was wrong or even right, but that is not what was brought to the table and I was NOT commenting on that.

My comment about "dumbing down" actually came from the person who told me that I should DUMB DOWN my music. By that, I assume that he meant to write for a larger audience....now before you ask, I will tell you why I assumed that-

If I were making dinner for a few close friends, I might start with some white wine, and maybe sushi for appetizers. For the main course I might serve a slightly seared tuna left perfectly pink in the middle. On the other hand, if I were serving a meal for a larger range of guests, some of who I am not close to and to not know very well, I might have chips and dip (both homemade) and serve a chicken dinner.

They are both food, but I changed the menu to benefit a larger palate that is more acceptable (at least where I live here in the southern US).

I "dumbed it down" from the point of view that I have diabetes and would have done much better with fish, and it was my favorite thing to eat, but I might be the only one eating in a larger setting (and this HAS happened to me)! Of course I will continue eating fish, and never assume that no one else will.

The things is, I put a LOT into both dinners. Just like I do my music. But I have to present something palatable for a larger range of folks.

So don't read too much into me quoting my friend. Dumbing down is actually a rude expression that ultimately, at least in my book, means working just has hard to appeal a larger audience. Post-apocalyptic-progressive-ambient-electronica is not the chicken dish.

And just like I don't have dinner parties to "look" better, I don't make music for that purpose.

It really does not matter why we make music or what our motive is. It is only important that we do it. And that was really my only point, even if I was not eloquent in presentation.

[highkoo]

I am fairly certain the term EDM was created just so real electronic music enthusiasts could easily identify the new breed of fans and producers who would be quick to self identify using the term, and segregate them.
And thats not even a joke.
If someone uses that term to describe what they make, or what they listen to, I instantly know they have no f**king clue about what 'EDM' actually is.

[RunBeerRun]

My music is usually awful, while I can play so well anyone would see something they hadn't before. That's my personality, too, I seem very impressive but when you actually talk to me, I don't have much stability to fall back on.

[trimph1]

I just checked the Cafe and I didnt see anything posted by edm. Does he/she use a different handle on KVR perhaps?

He has a few sockpuppet accounts - tarnce, tracne, wobblebass, thedrop, etc.

ecnart, knurc

egarag, ortcele...

[highkoo]

petstub

[vurt]

jizz.

[ghettosynth]

Good argument, and all I can say is that while commercially produced music may be a neccecary evil

Is it really evil? Music which makes women dance makes the world a better place.

EDM (tm) doesn't make people dance, they just kind of wobble in place. Not that that's a bad thing mind you, resonance and all that.

[jancivil]

Far be it from me to say what's wrong for you. I think you have identified an issue though.
"self-serving" looks like a pejorative framing, and you go further ...
So you're convinced?

I didn't find this a persuasive argument at all.

My comment (not an argument) was that there is no right and wrong in MOTIVE.

It really does not matter why we make music or what our motive is. It is only important that we do it. And that was really my only point, even if I was not eloquent in presentation.

This tack began when Sendy stated she felt like there is a wrong motive (also she said you had a good argument - to my lexicon you were there formulating an argument for your point-of-view.); for me, I'll state it broadly, when there is an external impetus to it. There's some real crap out there and I think some people can totally be only in it for the money.
I think there are cynical people making music dumb on purpose in order to cash in. I don't think I'm imagining it.
Today, I think there are people that decide to bypass the entire thing of musicianship in favor of "I'll Produce", ie., in order to slap together product in order to become popular and rich; and the music suffers from the lack of, really, interest, and it creates a whole wrong thing.
It takes up a lot of space. It dumbs people down.

So maybe you feel that music is very special, enough to be different than the rest of human activity, or are uncomfortable with the judgment there could be a wrong motive in music. I have this other view of it.

[JonSolo]

I tend to agree with you. What I do not want to do is confuse "motive behind making music" and "quality of the music made", no matter how closely related they can be.

The subtle point that is surfacing here is that music, as an art, is more paint by numbers than creativity with many of the current popular genres. Little thought goes into writing a song, more or less putting a song together.

Ultimately it comes down to ear candy. And we ARE inundated with it. I would not call any of it "wrong" as much as I would call it irritating and frustrating. Of course I am not part of the first generation (or the second, third, fourth, etc.) that complained that the next generation was dumbing down music. And I am confident that one day, those who create modern ear candy (EDM for the sake of this discussion) will complain that the next generation is wrong for their style, genre, and generally dumbing down listeners.

And if I am around, I will likely say that it is not wrong...but very irritating and frustrating.

[trimph1]

petstub

Petsbutt?

[2ZrgE]

I am fairly certain the term EDM was created just so real electronic music enthusiasts could easily identify the new breed of fans and producers who would be quick to self identify using the term, and segregate them.
And thats not even a joke.
If someone uses that term to describe what they make, or what they listen to, I instantly know they have no f**king clue about what 'EDM' actually is.

Frankly I don't know who created that term and for what purpose, and I don't really care.

"EDM" for me is a term like "Heavy Metal" or "Rock'n'Roll" - it gives a rather unspecific description what you can expect, and for people who doesn't have a clue about music it's a handy term to use (sorry, would love to be more precise, but I'm not a native speaker...)

I must admit that I always have to take a closer look if people talk about "EDM" or "EBM".

And yes, (amongst other genres) I also make 'EDM'.

[ntom]

I hate to ask this question, but specifically what genres are ya'll referring to as EDM? I mean, I know what the term stands for... electronic dance music, but with what connotation? The term has been around for many years but the meaning has changed lately and I don't know anymore what people mean by it. The most I can figure is poor quality house, eurotrance and dubstep.

I've not kept up with popular music for god knows how many years now so I have no idea what is popular in mainstream culture at the moment other than to some degree dubstep.

I'm not caught up in what is exactly happening in my thread, but...if this thread has gone down the path that I think it has:
Holy crap, we had this same argument last month about what constitutes "EDM" - please let's not get into semantics about genres. My point simply was saying there was a lot of music that seemed a bit...."commercial" compared to what is usually posted and it just seemed odd - in addition to the fact that the posters of said seemingly "commecial-esque" music were not active members in any other forum here on KVR, just the Cafe.

EDIT
I'm caught up. Glad to see it hasn't -QUITE- gone down the path of arguing what makes "EDM". Although some silly arguments. I don't really have much to say beyond that, I don't really want to get involved.