A rise of "Page 22" (post by Jan) rubbish in the Cafe?

[RunBeerRun]

My favorite band is Elmer's School Glue.

[JonSolo]

I think this is where it sidetracked-

The only self serving ones are those who make music that no one but them can appreciate. Money, fame, or whatever else might be selfish too, but at least offers something that pleases others...even if that was not the original motive.

Somehow that comment has become the topic of the last seven pages. It was a footnote to the REAL point I was trying to make which was- while we can determine right or wrong for ourselves including what we listen to, we really can't for others, including the music they make.

Someone had talked about "doing it for the money" was self-serving. I was saying if we want to be honest with that comment, to be self serving you would have to make music only you can appreciate...all other motives were irrelevant. But it was taken out of context and called a "strawman" argument. Whether individuals like that exist or not I do not know. But that would be the only TRUE self-serving definition I can think of, because it is not up to me to judge their motive.

We might not like what others are doing, but that feeling makes it neither wrong nor self-serving. <---this is the only sentence I will comment on further if it is challenged...because that was the only point I was making.

[vurt]

Nowadays, if a kid likes Martin Garrixx, Calvin Harris, Avicii or any of those guys, all they need to do is go on Youtube and watch a few videos - open Garageband, visit some forums, find out what samplepacks and synth settings were being used, and they can make a track sounding just like some of those other guys - vastly simplified argument but you get the idea.

If they want to share their stuff, get some feedback, or just revel in the "hey I did something!" feeling, they're not going to post it at Neowin, DeviantArt or MoneySavingExpert.com....I hope. They're going to head for one of the biggest communities of "electronic" musicians on the net that they can find (you decide if it's KVR, not saying it is).

True enough. So, what would be a better place to post my next track instead of here? It's in the general area of Calvin Harris or Cascada.

Post it wherever you like, it's really not my concern; it's your art and you have the freedom to do whatever you like with it.

I guess the roundabout point I was failing to make is that everyone starts somewhere....to labour the comparison, the kid who liked Metallica would've had to get their mate around to show off their chops. Nowadays there are a multitude of options - and communities - available to do the same. I'd hope that KVR is welcoming and inclusive to those people who'd like to showcase their work and get some feedback.

I agree, kvr is an open forum and should welcome anyone who is out there making any kind of music, that doesnt mean we should all post in every thread, but belittling a genre or style in these kind of threads just because it doesnt fit in with our hibrow and obviously much more talented world view is unnecessary. so long as no one is actually hurting any one or inciting hatefulness does it matter what they post? just dont listen if you dont want to, theres no gun to your head forcing you to do so

[ghettosynth]

True enough. So, what would be a better place to post my next track instead of here? It's in the general area of Calvin Harris or Cascada.

You don't know? IMNSHO, that's really a core part of the problem. By problem, I simply mean KVR's problem, I'm not trying to make a grand statement. I'll just come flat out and tell you, I think I've actually said something like this before, to you even, it's not KVR. KVR is not really EDM centric in any sense of the meaning of EDM. You're not reaching YOUR audience by posting your music here.

Ha, I know. KVR is a good place to post about my sample libraries, though. But I really don't know of a good place to post tracks I'm working on to get useful technical feedback before I play them in a club.

My point was that you SHOULD know how to get the feedback that you need. It's 2014, not 1999, if you can't use the internet to connect to your audience and peers then you aren't competitive. This is especially true if your music and peers are contemporary, e.g., you make EDM that sounds like Calvin Harris.

Moreover, KVR is not that audience. There are some EDM musicians here and some appreciation of contemporary EDM, but, largely, KVR has a very different musical aesthetic. I don't mean this in any pejorative sense, it's just not a good place to get meaningful feedback beyond perhaps some production questions, and even there, you're not going to get that much help because the crowd doesn't really like the music all that much.

The larger point that I'm trying to make is that it's really kind of a mistake to be asking because it's a giant red flag that you don't know your audience. If you did know your audience you could ask them for feedback.

This isn't everyone who asks questions here, even about EDM (classic meaning), I'm sure that I'm not being all that clear, but, it's pretty clear to me when someone is asking for specific kinds of advice that make sense for the KVR audience and when someone is seeking feedback that is really more appropriate for a different audience. It's like some of those posting are asking their grandmothers for fashion advice. Sometimes that can be ok, but on average, it's not going to yield worthwhile results. I hesitate to use this analogy because it's not even really an age thing.

I don't think that the original poster is complaining so much about EDM, so much as they're complaining about this sense of inappropriate requests for feedback. It just happens to be aimed at the EDM crowd because that is what is contemporary today. The fact that it's so easy to churn something out amplifies the deluge.

[ghettosynth]

so what's the point of this thread?

I sense that the goal was improving the quality of the music cafe, even if it wasn't stated. To me, that's a worthwhile goal and I have a simple solution. Restrict posting to those with say 500 posts. That's my number, pick your own, the actual number isn't the point so much as I think that the quality the cafe would improve if posting there were restricted to those people who have taken the time to be a part of the larger community at KVR.

I understand the OPs "sense" of the matter, and although I don't like contemporary EDM, e.g. Main Room House and XStep, I'm absolutely an EDM (classic meaning) fan and consumer. Still, I have the cafe turned off because of the too many too soon posts.

[highkoo]

I sit solidly in the middle of this 'debate'...
But, it is a little odd to me that any KVRist would not presume that KVR would, and should, be inundated by whatever is popular.
Like I said way back on page whatever, this is a site about tools. These tools are the core of EDM. The rise of EDM is (arguably) the reason some of the tools exist...
Someone might be making pre-post-mimimal-punk-fusion with their synths, but they should probably expect to run into a lot of people wanting to "sound like" some EDM star.
No one is forced to like anything, but its pretty hard not to sound like youre saying 'Damn kids!' when you bitch about EDM made using your favorite synth...

So... Can we start posting horrible 'new music' now?
That first one was pretty bad, and the violin one is really really awful, but we are only scratching the surface...



This is a bit of a piss take, and tbh I do really love some of his tracks. Brutal stuff. First track on that is kind rockin... But, this one does kind of hit the 'EDM Shit' nail on the head, as intended.

[ntom]

hmmm...speaking of songs that are piss taking, it seems obligatory to post this one any and every time any debate even remotely similar to this comes up:

[Tricky-Loops]

Despite this funny video, DJs from Mars are still one of the better EDM producers but I always fear they could suffocate because of the boxes over their heads...

[ntom]

so what's the point of this thread?

I sense that the goal was improving the quality of the music cafe, even if it wasn't stated. To me, that's a worthwhile goal and I have a simple solution. Restrict posting to those with say 500 posts. That's my number, pick your own, the actual number isn't the point so much as I think that the quality the cafe would improve if posting there were restricted to those people who have taken the time to be a part of the larger community at KVR.

Eh...trust me, I've been preaching about the state of the cafe for nearly as long as I have been a member of KVR....But it probably won't change.
I would love to see the cafe support and encourage the idea that listeners should leave comments on the music, we'd see a lot less music - potentially good tracks - get drowned by the 100th million remix of Popstar EDM artist number X.
And no, I have nothing against EDM, hell, once in awhile there is a song that I enjoy...there was one Calvin Harris song I actually liked...forgot the name...something about love falling down like a waterfall and then some really repetitive guitar comes in that is...oddly catchy even if it's not the pinnacle of musical brilliance.
My problem is that none of the music I have listened to - and don't feel like I am stating that ALL the music that gets posted falls under this, as I only listen to a small select few tracks in the cafe maybe...once a week? I tend to pick posts with less than a couple comments on them. These tracks tend to be uninspired commercial-styled pop music made with cookie-cut preset, samples, and loops - and I can appreciate taking a premade, cookie-cut loop and cutting and splicing! There's a time and a place for everything, you know? But sometimes, it isn't the right time or the right place.

And REALLY the initial thread I posted was that I seemed to have noticed a growing number of EDM, commercial-esque sounding tracks in the cafe which had comments by non-regular KVRists that strictly seem to post bland Soundcloud-esque comments on the threads.

[herodotus]

so what's the point of this thread?

I sense that the goal was improving the quality of the music cafe, even if it wasn't stated. To me, that's a worthwhile goal and I have a simple solution. Restrict posting to those with say 500 posts. That's my number, pick your own, the actual number isn't the point so much as I think that the quality the cafe would improve if posting there were restricted to those people who have taken the time to be a part of the larger community at KVR.

The community here really is kind of distinct.

It shocked me recently when I looked at my little avatar area to the right and noticed that I had passed my ten year anniversary here.

I have known vurt for ten years.



Ten years is just short of forever on the internet time scale.

In any case, I don't think that there is anything wrong in theory with wanting to preserve the particular character of any community. But in meat space reality, achieving that goal can be perilous, because meat space reality is finite. The people you are trying to exclude may have nowhere else to go. But anyone who can scrape together 65 American dollars a year can buy enough web space to host any number of online communities. Online reality allows so many more communities to exist that the problem is less "how can everyone have a voice?" than it is "how can we keep the entire internet from being completely subsumed by 4chan and YouTube comments?".

A little exclusivity might be healthy.

There, I said it.

[Katelyn]

This entire topic seems to be people's nostalgia filter and the typical 'I don't like this new generation's music'.

If I show some really awesome Goa from the mid 90's to some RL friends they will go "ew techno! This isn't even music!" (I actually really hate this as Trance is not Techno).

If I show some IDK say Eastern European Metal (I have a taste for the slightly obscure) some people will go "metal is just a bunch of noises and I can't understand all this Russian!"

Similarly what is trash to someone else could be gold to another.

Stuff like this:

While boring and dull to me, is structurally and tonally music I am familiar with, although I wouldn't know what to call it, it seems to be a generalized electronic track with so many various influences as to be generic. But it's assuredly music.

I guess the roundabout point I was failing to make is that everyone starts somewhere....to labour the comparison, the kid who liked Metallica would've had to get their mate around to show off their chops. Nowadays there are a multitude of options - and communities - available to do the same. I'd hope that KVR is welcoming and inclusive to those people who'd like to showcase their work and get some feedback.

Similarly I don't think it's anything but elitist to try to shun those kids making music (not saying you said that, this following being more expanding on what your saying). What would we prefer, a closed off world where only the elite and those with the financial ability can put their music out there? Or a world where any random person, who may or may not have creativity, will be able to get lots of people to see it?

Ya in the latter world, there will be a lot more terrible art. 90% of all art typically is not the best or average. It's that 10% we all crave. In the past the same amount of art was made more or less but less was able to be recorded, and even a ton of that recorded was lost due to people not caring. My mom is really into old movies (silents and black and whites) and I've heard her talk about movies of almost legendary proportion that were supposedly amazing works of art that were lost to some idiots not thinking anyone would care to see in the future. In some cases they would find old copies half rotted that still worked in others just fragments of them.

In the world we are in today that type of thing is less likely, what with the internet and easy accessibility to storage methods, but I don't know how long CDs or the like will really last in any environment, ect.

So even over time everyone will forget a lot of the lower quality music, and the cycle with the nostalgia filter will continue... but at least now the playing field is level and anyone with enough creativity can possibly become big or put their stuff out there for others to enjoy. Sure sure, lots of terrible artists will become popular, but that's kind of a given that there will be popular music that someone won't like.

As far as electronic music I feel as if it's that in it's own circles it became so popular that some major artist saw it and so incorporated some aspect, and so the mainstream now open to the idea finds someone with pop sensibilities making that kind of music and takes it all in no matter how crappy it is in comparison to it's parent genre of style, since it's new and novel to them.

And as I said before, there are both good and bad things about that, it is what it is and this thing has happened for god knows how long.

Okay: so she's a trained violinist and it shows...but I still find her music droll...
(kind of a bad example of a song by her. She was known for doing "Violin Dubstep" - this track specifically is more tame, but some of her so called "Violin Dubstep" sounds just as bad on paper as it does to the ears)

egh...one more edit:

I guess what I am trying to say is: Impressive play skill does not make impressive music.

Hey, Stirling is actually pretty good with a large amount of her stuff. And is definitely a lot more original than most artists out there. Actually if you don't even click any of the videos I link in here at least listen to the medley she did of music from Phantom of the Opera. The part where they come in with Bach's piece on the keyboard and guitar is pretty sweet:



If you're hatin' on it because it has some wub wub then I suggest you listen to something along the lines of Obsidia to see if you might change their mind, although they also do dubstyle, drumstep, I think they got a hardstyle song too and lots of others.



Although you would never catch me listening to Skrillex or Dead Mouse I do like Obsidia. Though this isn't the one I'm linking they got a pretty sweet song they collab'd for that is drumstep + rap. And before anyone starts hating on rap... rap is basically poetry set to a song and by god there was battles of poems at the ancient Olympic games... yes, ancient people were doing rap battles before it was cool. And no, I don't listen to gangster rap my tastes are mostly too obscure for that; I prefer the likes of Saul Williams with all his awesome religious (usually Buddhist) references:

[ntom]

[in reference to my post]

I think you missed the point of that thread where I simply said: Impressive playing does not make impressive music.
Relating the statement to any one specific artist is subjective. You are welcome to like your weubby violins and bigphat kick n' snares.
Personally, I find it loud and noisy. BUT WAIT - god, people get so up in arms that - godforbid - I state my opinion online I have somehow offended the entire community that follows it. I'm not saying that you should hate it. You should revel in the fact you like that kind of stuff. I get to stay bitter towards every sniff of phat-ass drops and big, powerful, obnoxious kicks and snares.

To me there is a fine line between polish and being over produced. I think what makes a lot of great works of art is the subtly contained within, and dumstep and any variant of it reminds me more of a child running up to your ear and shouting "LOOK WHAT I DID, I CAN MAKE SOUNDS!! DO YOU LIKE THEM? I HOPE YOU LIKE THEM! HEY!!! NOTICE ME!!!!"
--That's not to say on a rare occasion I find a piece of dumstep/drubstep/loudstep/brostep/Stepstep that I enjoy. The same goes for any other genre of music.

[trimph1]

Nostalgia is one element in this though. I feel that we need to step back and ask ourselves what are we doing music-wise and are we really up to our own standards.

I know that I sure as beeeep am not.

[trimph1]

Oh....and get off my lawn!!!!


Dang kids

[Katelyn]

[in reference to my post]

I think you missed the point of that thread where I simply said: Impressive playing does not make impressive music.
Relating the statement to any one specific artist is subjective. You are welcome to like your weubby violins and bigphat kick n' snares.
Personally, I find it loud and noisy. BUT WAIT - god, people get so up in arms that - godforbid - I state my opinion online I have somehow offended the entire community that follows it. I'm not saying that you should hate it. You should revel in the fact you like that kind of stuff. I get to stay bitter towards every sniff of phat-ass drops and big, powerful, obnoxious kicks and snares.

To me there is a fine line between polish and being over produced. I think what makes a lot of great works of art is the subtly contained within, and dumstep and any variant of it reminds me more of a child running up to your ear and shouting "LOOK WHAT I DID, I CAN MAKE SOUNDS!! DO YOU LIKE THEM? I HOPE YOU LIKE THEM! HEY!!! NOTICE ME!!!!"
--That's not to say on a rare occasion I find a piece of dumstep/drubstep/loudstep/brostep/Stepstep that I enjoy. The same goes for any other genre of music.

I'm not offended, more just saying that I disagree. Also there really isn't any 'massive drops' in Stirlings work, Obsidia has a variety of stuff though and not all of it I like but I do enjoy their stuff in general, they have some 'massive drops' which I may or may not enjoy depending on the context of the rest of the soundscape.

Also if all music was subtle would it be any fun? Sometimes something dramatic can be good. There were plenty of moments in classical music and older music that was anything but subtle. As an example the first thing that comes to my mind is an Opera Sceneic Cantata, Orff's opening part of Carmina Burana has sudden, epic loud yelling and stuff right after along period of slow quietness. Granted that last part of it has been used in like a million different movies to the point of cliche' but my point still stands as the piece is over 70 years old.

Similarly you can see similar dramatic changes in the work of Beethoven, which if I recall correctly actually did that a lot. Humans are dramatic creatures and to some no massive movements of energy are boring.

*And your right, you have a right to disagree, but don't mistake my right to disagree as well and my expression of that disagreement as being offended.*

If I hear music I don't like I'd rather just not comment on it and move on as I know that all music and art is subjective, as opposed to bitch about it to other people. The only thing I'll ever bitch about is people confusing the technical definitions of genres not the actual merits of either itself since you can't really measure that (but you can measure the components of genres; tempo, rhythmic styles ect).

Nostalgia is one element in this though. I feel that we need to step back and ask ourselves what are we doing music-wise and are we really up to our own standards.

I know that I sure as beeeep am not.

If the average user here is over the age of 30, then they should get someone over the age of 50 and see them say the same things about the music that they like and/or produce. It would be eerily similar, same if the people age 50+ asked people age 70+ and so on and so on...

-------------------------

Speaking of classical and dubstep...



Mozart won tho, I love his expression at the end x.x