A rise of "Page 22" (post by Jan) rubbish in the Cafe?

[Axis1~SL61]

I've also noticed what the O.P. pointed out. I don't think it's only a matter of younger members that we should or, let's say, must "understand" and that those that don't "understand" it are just nostalgic and such -- No... It rather seems to me that it's actually a matter of narrow taste and total ignorance of the roots and development of modern music. I say this because I remember very well, back in the early '70s, in my early teens, the first time I listened to '50s rock & roll on the radio, I was immediately interested in finding out more about it. And of course, I was already into what was trendy back then (Deep Purple, Slade, Black Sabbath, Steppenwolf and such). Being into the new music is no reason to ignore the old. Actually I like almost any kind of music from the '50s to the 2000s -- And as a musician I don't need to play all those genres to know if a song or track is well done or not -- even if it's music outside my favorite genres!... I would even dare to say I can see if a piece is well done or not even in a genre that I dislike! So, yes, I've seen my share of ignorant, "nose up in the air", arrogant newbies (with less then 30 posts) posting in the Music Cafe and even daring to write absolutely ignorant, totally destructive "feedback" to those few who sometimes post something different from the last trends!
Just my opinion ...

[Katelyn]

I've also noticed what the O.P. pointed out. I don't think it's only a matter of younger members that we should or, let's say, must "understand" and that those that don't "understand" it are just nostalgic and such -- No... It rather seems to me that it's actually a matter of narrow taste and total ignorance of the roots and development of modern music. I say this because I remember very well, back in the early '70s, in my early teens, the first time I listened to '50s rock & roll on the radio, I was immediately interested in finding out more about it. And of course, I was already into what was trendy back then (Deep Purple, Slade, Black Sabbath, Steppenwolf and such). Being into the new music is no reason to ignore the old. Actually I like almost any kind of music from the '50s to the 2000s -- And as a musician I don't need to play all those genres to know if a song or track is well done or not -- even if it's music outside my favorite genres!... I would even dare to say I can see if a piece is well done or not even in a genre that I dislike. So, yes, I've seen my share of ignorant, "nose up in the air", arrogant newbies (with less then 30 posts) posting in the Music Cafe and even daring to write absolutely ignorant, totally destructive "feedback" to those few who sometimes post something deemed "not so trendy"!
Just my opinion ...

Perhaps in light of this I'm not totally aware of what's going on and my last post wasn't the best; I hardly interact with people even my own age (24) and definitely not younger outside of the gaming community I run, so I don't really know what younger people are like these days, but recalling how they were when I was a teenager and some of the younger teens I could definitely see this but at the same time I suspect the majority of people throughout the ages were similar with those having an appreciation for history and roots being the minority. Perhaps it's more so in the modern, fast-paced always on a cellphone lifestyle. I don't understand how people can live like that but they do.

I've actually not looked in the music cafe other than to check out the contest section a couple of times, is it really that bad?

[Axis1~SL61]

I've actually not looked in the music cafe other than to check out the contest section a couple of times, is it really that bad?

Not always, but it seems to me that since 2or3 years ago all the good reviewers and good advice givers are showing less and less there... or maybe I'm somehow out of sync with them when I visit the Music Cafe, I don't know...
I could give a few examples of what I'm talking about, but it's too late in the night here and I'm falling asleep. If this thread continues for a few more days, I could give a few very positive examples that happened to me in the Music Cafe about 2 or 3 years ago, and then compare with my last experiences from this year.

And a note about the "fast paced cellphone life"-- I don't think that's an excuse -- there's never been so much access to music from all times as we have now on youtube, for example -- so, if nowadays someone wants to be a musician or a producer, there's absolutely no excuse for never having heard of the influential musicians at the roots of contemporary pop music culture (from Blues and Rock & Roll to EDM, including Prog.Rock and everything in between). However, if you say "DJs" (non musicians) hoping to become mega pop-stars without ever playing a single note of their own, then maybe part of the problem being discussed here comes from that....

[ntom]

Also if all music was subtle would it be any fun?

You misunderstand what "subtleties" are. I did not say subtle music, I said subtleties in music - or really art in general. The small off-key passes, the little quirks, the occasional off beat, or even small references to older pieces, or anything, something minute, something small, something...subtle. All these things add up and really make a piece deeper.
See, using the screaming child example again: On the one hand, I suppose it's nice you heard everything his said quite loud and clearly...but do you really want to listen to it again? No.
On the other hand, music or art that has these subtleties inside of it offers something interesting. Like listening to a whisper, soft and sweet and you can't help but maybe miss a few things so you have to say, "Sorry, what was that?" and listen to it again, and this piece that was once something but a simple melody, and bland drums suddenly you realize: There's more to this.

Another way to put it is like going to a bad comedy club and having the comic tell a joke and then say, "Wasn't that funny guys?" rather than going to a good comedy club where the comic executes the joke with perfect timing to let it sink in and the listeners get a laugh on their own without being told to laugh.

[his posts]

I use to be a good advice giver - more or less. I use to share whatever knowledge I had learned from the wonderful folks here on KVR with other passerbyers in the Cafe. I would literally write 4 to 5 pages of explanation, I would record tutorials specifically for some of the posters, I would do whatever I could to share knowledge with those who were legitimately interested in learning. But I've grown cynical. Maybe it's because I don't find the music inspiring enough to want to share, or maybe - like I mentioned before - I'm just a bitter old man (even though I'm actually younger than Katelyn)
This post made me interested at least to take a crack at the Cafe again and I posted on ONE song...I guess it's better than nothing, hahaha. I don't know, I've kind of lost touch with KVR over the past year, and honestly I think it's been somewhat good for me - but that's a different story.

[Katelyn]

Also if all music was subtle would it be any fun?

You misunderstand what "subtleties" are. I did not say subtle music, I said subtleties in music - or really art in general. The small off-key passes, the little quirks, the occasional off beat, or even small references to older pieces, or anything, something minute, something small, something...subtle. All these things add up and really make a piece deeper.

My bad I thought you were commenting on the overall general aggressiveness of music made in the last 20 years. Though I would of termed it as a matter of complexity vs simplicity.

In that case I've noticed that myself in goa and psy; unless it's by someone really good the psy coming out today is stuck in simplistic cookie-cutter formats. Go back even just 10 years and it was better quality. And I know that isn't a nostalgia factor as I hadn't listened to any electronic genres until 2 or 3 years ago so all of it was new to me when I first noticed this. I think this trend has affected the vast majority of electronic genres.

I'd suspect a lot of this has to do with the threshold of commitment needed to produce tracks not being as high as it used to due to lowering costs. It's less of a risk of investment if you are unsure of how well you will do trying to make a living or hobby. That and the rise in popularity in electronic music.

I think a similar thing had happened with rock and metal years back, but I don't know enough about it on a technical level to really comment.

And a note about the "fast paced cellphone life"-- I don't think that's an excuse --

I was by no means endorsing the lifestyle, far from it; I rather despise it and the only working cellphone I've ever owned was an 8 dollar piece of crap for work or in case I get stranded somewhere.

When my people do shit like text when eating out or at reunions ect it drives me insane. I actually rather agree with you, people are too busy keeping up with all the distracting cat .gifs or whatever else they do on their phones when they could be doing something more productive. But on the other hand I can see why as I can waste a lot of time reading funny stuff on the internet before I realize it, the temptation is just too easy for some people and that lifestyle caters to inherent human laziness and instant gratification.

Many people don't want to spend time actually learning how to make music and appreciate it's history, they just wanna be like so and so whom they heard do something they think is cool, instead of actually doing something that they make their own, because that would take work and having your own identity to express, you know?

[Sendy]

so what's the point of this thread?

I sense that the goal was improving the quality of the music cafe, even if it wasn't stated. To me, that's a worthwhile goal and I have a simple solution. Restrict posting to those with say 500 posts. That's my number, pick your own, the actual number isn't the point so much as I think that the quality the cafe would improve if posting there were restricted to those people who have taken the time to be a part of the larger community at KVR.

I understand the OPs "sense" of the matter, and although I don't like contemporary EDM, e.g. Main Room House and XStep, I'm absolutely an EDM (classic meaning) fan and consumer. Still, I have the cafe turned off because of the too many too soon posts.

I would love to see the 500 post restriction to the Music Cafe. Hell, even 50 posts would probably filter out a lot of the "I made a beat listen to the beat" posts and make the whole forum more useful to those who actually participate in the larger game.

[PurpleCatfishBettie]

i like a lot of the 'new' music, except for the advent of the 'sub-bass sustain'... it's like a rumbling throughout the entire track. often the bass or kick 'hit' lasts 'forever'. i like 'old-style bass/kicks' that generally had more of a quick cut-off. the phreaking 'rumbling sub boom' in so many new tracks freaks me out.

leaving that aside, there are a lot of great 'new' 'timbres' ('tones') that these pieces often contain. if someone were to bring the 'new timbres' along with a real knowledge of music theory, they could earn a mint. as it is, 'producers' with just the knowledge of 'timbre/tone' and no apparent knowledge of music theory are already getting paid. it appears the world yet awaits the first rachmaninov-level theorist who also employs cutting edge tones.

[JonSolo]

I would love to see the 500 post restriction to the Music Cafe. Hell, even 50 posts would probably filter out a lot of the "I made a beat listen to the beat" posts and make the whole forum more useful to those who actually participate in the larger game.

This is something I would wholly support! 100 posts seems fair in order to START a Topic. Then we would know for sure that we were dealing with a "community" member. I had personally blocked the whole forum section. But you have indirectly given me my own personal filter criteria and I love it!

[trimph1]

I would love to see the 500 post restriction to the Music Cafe. Hell, even 50 posts would probably filter out a lot of the "I made a beat listen to the beat" posts and make the whole forum more useful to those who actually participate in the larger game.

This is something I would wholly support! 100 posts seems fair in order to START a Topic. Then we would know for sure that we were dealing with a "community" member. I had personally blocked the whole forum section. But you have indirectly given me my own personal filter criteria and I love it!

That would work for me as well...

[cryophonik]

Or, instead of being perceived as a bunch of elitist jerks, maybe some of us could just figure out how to not listen to music that we're not interested in hearing. It's actually quite simple and I've been successfully doing it for decades. If there's enough interest, I could make a short tutorial. At first, it may take you an hour or so to figure out how to not click on a link to a song that you're not interested in hearing, but, with enough practice, you can actually learn do it in less than one second. Yeah, seriously.

[vurt]

logic bomb!

[RunBeerRun]

If someone's music can be enjoyed by themselves or another, then to those listeners it's as valid as any other music. Any music whatsoever is valid.

I think this thread had WAYYYY more potential in joke responses.

[Axis1~SL61]

I also agree with the 100 post limit (maybe even 50) to post songs AND to comment on posted songs. It's not a question of clicking and regretting having clicked ( they don't get a click on their soundcloud statistics or youtube unless someone listens above 75% or more of the song). That's not a problem for me -- it's the clutter that it creates that can be very discouraging to use the Music Cafe. The post limit would be a good way to clear a lot of clutter.

[Hink]

I've also noticed what the O.P. pointed out. I don't think it's only a matter of younger members that we should or, let's say, must "understand" and that those that don't "understand" it are just nostalgic and such -- No... It rather seems to me that it's actually a matter of narrow taste and total ignorance of the roots and development of modern music. I say this because I remember very well, back in the early '70s, in my early teens, the first time I listened to '50s rock & roll on the radio, I was immediately interested in finding out more about it. And of course, I was already into what was trendy back then (Deep Purple, Slade, Black Sabbath, Steppenwolf and such). Being into the new music is no reason to ignore the old. Actually I like almost any kind of music from the '50s to the 2000s -- And as a musician I don't need to play all those genres to know if a song or track is well done or not -- even if it's music outside my favorite genres!... I would even dare to say I can see if a piece is well done or not even in a genre that I dislike! So, yes, I've seen my share of ignorant, "nose up in the air", arrogant newbies (with less then 30 posts) posting in the Music Cafe and even daring to write absolutely ignorant, totally destructive "feedback" to those few who sometimes post something different from the last trends!
Just my opinion ...

I think that happened to a lot of us, wasn't that the Fonzarelli effect?

[Axis1~SL61]

I think that happened to a lot of us, wasn't that the Fonzarelli effect?

The only "Fonzerelli effect" I know about was the one described in the '80s "Happy Days" series (part of the '50s revival that took place in the '80s, yes), but anyway what I mean is that I don't discard music as "dated", "passé" or uninteresting just by becaude it uses older sounds or is inspired by past trends. I like new sounds, but making music that uses old sounds in new contexts, mixing genres and making something that doesn't fit in any genre (by having elements of different genres) can sound good and interesting as well (at least to me)