u-he

nschmidt-dd · Post by **nschmidt-dd** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:25 am

This might be of interest for those of you working with Ableton Live:

http://www.xmonsta.com/product/diva-vst ... e-xplugin/

It requires:

1) Ableton and Max4Live
2) xmonta's PULL
3) PULL template DIVA
4) iPad Lemur and iPad

and integrates nicely with Ableton PUSH

For me the next level of editing soft synths ... hehe

Cheers

Phil999 · Post by **Phil999** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:00 am

it would be nice to give credit to the guy who built this template. And sell the m4l device only and include a link to the Lemur user forum where you can download this template for free.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:37 pm

Indeed!

https://forum.liine.net/viewtopic.php?f ... iva#p14548

nschmidt-dd · Post by **nschmidt-dd** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:02 pm

Mh ... I wasn't aware of this ... the m4l device is valuable as it is, for sure ... however, I now have some serious reservations concerning the lemur template ...

There are some optical deviations between both of your templates, but I have no clue how much of an overlap there is under the hood in comparison to your version, Phil999.

I noticed, that one fellow just now referred to your template in xmonsta's announcement thread in Ableton forum. Curious to see what he is going to tell ... https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php ... 9#p1640039

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:13 pm

So was I

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:02 pm

Yep, I pointed it out at ableton forum and xmonsta got offended.

He also didnt want to give credit for Mu that is the basis for pull.

Phil999 · Post by **Phil999** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:23 pm

I don't know how much overlap there is. And I know in my version there are a lot of primitive things dating back to 2012 when I started with Lemur. Which I'm going to improve some day. Your version is surely much better.

Never mind. Somehow it is also good to see a concept grow. Although the concept itself is from u-he alone actually. The MIDI parameters for module change are there from the beginning, so it's pretty obvious that this would work very well with Lemur. The problem was to find a host with bi-directional control. One question: does the m4l device send parameter data when you change a preset in Diva?

I understand that the old Lemur template had to be redone, I guess partly from scratch; so it's not only the m4l device that took a lot of time. And I think the price is good. I even may buy it myself just to see how it works with m4l.

Today I was thinking about including a disclaimer like "do not sell or make money with this free template" to the work I do, but on the other hand I think why not? If someone is following the idea and builds something much more sophisticated than I could ever build, why not?

Sorry about my first comment. It was a spontaneous reaction after seeing something I built for many months for myself appear in an ad. I think it is alright what you do. Helping other Diva users to gain much better access to their softsynth is not bad. They will rediscover this well done softsynth in a new way. And for not much money (Ableton Live) or for free (Cubase).

We may also think about a collaboration. I started to create some Canvas objects in Lemur with good graphical representation of the diverse waveforms. The one thing that was lacking graphically. Some other improvements could be done.

Phil999 · Post by **Phil999** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:36 pm

credit for Mu? Didn't know about that one. Didn't follow the discussion.

Myself I found that making small money from other people's work is not a crime, especially if it is well worked out and a usable final product.

If I was clever enough I could make my own website and sell my stuff, but I'm not. Therefore I cannot be against those clever people who do it - to the contrary, I may even support them.

Although ... there is always the real danger of commerce. There are Lemur templates for 20 and 50 $, and there have been scenes in forums about that (lending ideas developed by enthusiasts and making money with it), it makes me sick. $7 however is a reasonable amount to purchase a working Diva programmer I think. It is worth much more.

nschmidt-dd · Post by **nschmidt-dd** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:32 pm

Phil999 wrote: I think it is alright what you do.

Just to avoid a misunderstanding. The only two things I did were to purchase pull and diva template from xmonsta and to let all of you know about it.

Phil999 I am in favor with you disliking that there are no references at all to your work. Assuming xmonsta knew / knows about your template.

On the other hand a collaboration might not be a bad idea either

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:59 pm

The thing that concerns me is in principle the M4L device should work with any plugin but by bundling each release of it with a specific template he gets to sell it again and again. Not so bad if he made the template he's bundling it with perhaps, but if he isn't even doing that then....

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:41 pm

He surely had to made some changes to the template. And judging by the screenshot he also added some functionality.

He also claims to have made his own scripting.

nschmidt-dd · Post by **nschmidt-dd** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:45 am

... and that he used OSC instead of MIDI. Which would be a completely different approach?

News From The Sky · Post by **News From The Sky** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:16 am

Re-using someone else's work without their consent is extremely bad form (even if you've improved on it, your work wouldn't exist without without their work, so have the decency to get their blessing first) - if true. Is there any evidence that xmonsta has actually re-used other people's work? Or is it just a case of similar features from different sources?

xmonsta · Post by **xmonsta** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:49 pm

Hi,

We're the makers of the Diva template and PULL. It's important to make a few things clear to resolve any confusion.

The DIVA template on the Liine forum will not be able to work with PULL without weeks (potentially months) of development work. There is no way this template can use our xPlugin. Although it looks similar (because both templates aim to emulate DIVA vst in some way) it simply wont work, because it is a completely different architecture. With xPlugin there is bi-directional feedback for Diva. There is no feedback when presets are changed as Phill999 points out, so we implemented a refresh button for when presets are changed (which refreshes all parameters). We are working with Cycling74 to introduce feedback when presets are changed (because there are a few other VST's that display similar behaviour. You may notice that if you "configure" or map parameters in Ableton, these do not update either, so this is a common problem.

There is no similiarity between the Diva template on the Liine forum and the one found on xMonsta.com . We built every single object, script ourselves by hand. If you have any doubt, please purchase the software and compare for yourself. You will find absolutely no resemblance whatsoever between these templates. Similarly, you're welcome to carry out the same process with PULL vs MU. You may notice that MU is not actually functional with the latest versions of Lemur and Ableton Live. This is because there have been changes to the core architecture of Lemur that have rendered MU defunct. For instance, there is no way to send templates to the Lemur (this functionality has been removed). We had to find our own way of sending templates to the Lemur, which involved reverse engineering the usage of Lemur over TCPIP. In other words we developed a completely new way of sending templates to the Lemur, through Max/Python applications. There is no resemblance between Mu and PULL code. Feel free to check for yourself, both the code and concepts are 100% different.

We were not aware of the DIVA template on the Liine forum until it was posted into our thread and assumptions were made about us copying it, which are entirely untrue. When we create new templates for PULL, we don't even check the Liine website for existing templates. The reason for this is because it takes such a long time to create these templates in PULL, it is quicker just to make them by hand. If you use PULL to make your own templates you will quickly realise this. It is becoming quite clear to us that the those who are making these assumptions are not actually customers of PULL and therefore these claims have no basis, because they cannot have actually made these comparisons themselves.

There would be no point in using any parts of the suggested MIDI template for PULL, because they are completely different architectures. By the time you have copied over parts of the template and edited them, you might as well have built it yourself. In fact, trying to convert a MIDI template to OSC (PULL) would be an entirely fruitless effort, that would almost certainly take more time than building the template from scratch.

We're in this for the long haul and not in the business of taking other peoples work and passing it off as our own. It took a whole year of development (several developers full time) to build PULL and every single line of code, every concept was created from the ground up by us - putting a great deal of thought into how a device controller should work. The DIVA template represents weeks of painstaking work, to map all the parameters using OSC. To make the template work for MIDI is a fairly straightforward process. To make a DIVA PULL template that uses OSC, so you can control any instance of DIVA and instantly switch templates to other VST, is an entirely different project altogether. Not to mention that Ableton also has limits as to the amount of parameters that it can control (up to 128). We invested a huge amount of time in finding a solution for this, so you can control every available parameter of Diva (over 250)

I hope this helps to outline our reasoning. We're not here to flame anyone, or get offended. We're just doing the best job we can to try and help musicians, because this is the feedback we have been given by them, in terms of what they need. However, hope you can understand that if there is confusion around our developments, then we should have the chance to clear up this confusion.

Cheers

Si

xMonsta.com

Phil999 · Post by **Phil999** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:11 pm

thank you xmonsta for your statement.

- I did the wrong assumption that the original poster made a copy of my work. My fault, sorry about that.
- later I thought why not copying? The important thing is to give people full control over a good softsynth. I even proposed a collaboration (without financial interest of course)
- usually you give credit to those who helped or inspired you, and I missed that part here. Maybe it was a parallel development from both of us. Such things happen. I had it in late 2012, shared it, so everything that appeared later is potentially a copy
- I also spent months for this template. Hard work. Unpaid
- it is true that the mapping and scripting is the main part of the work; the graphic appearance is relatively easy to do, therefore copying a MIDI-based template to an OSC/Max-based template would not make much sense. I do not know it, but I believe you when you say you didn't copy my work. Maybe you got inspired by images from my Lemur template that were shared over the internet, who knows. And who cares. It doesn't matter. Or to the contrary, I always like it when I see something appear somewhere else that contains stuff from my 'laboratory'.

But I'm sure you understand my surprise. You would probably feel the same if you discovered a commercial product that looks like yours, without contact from the developer and without giving credit.

One more thing I would like to make clear: my template does instantly change all parameters after you change a preset in Diva. Permanent, accurate feedback (including GUI module swapping) on the iPad, even when you're stepping quickly through presets. And you can do this even from the iPad itself if the physical (mini-) keyboard has no preset change buttons.
This is because Cubase is the only host to my knowledge that does this right, it sends all plugin parameters when it's needed. That's why I chose Cubase as host, and MIDI. Also, for VCF cutoff and VCO tune, 14-bit MIDI has been used for accuracy. 7-bit (normal CC) was not enough for these parameters. It is free, and will remain free, and will be updated with better graphics, and will be updated if u-he adds new modules. I did this work for musicians who want direct access to Diva. And it is not only my work. There are a couple of helpful souls in the Lemur forum who made it possible, especially Lemur user Analog604, but also Antonio Blanca and Macciza MacPherson, just to name the most important. There are many other users that help each other. Many newer templates (from the Liine Lemur era) are collaborations.

The only limitation is that it works only 100% in Cubase 32-bit, and only for the VST2 version. In 64-bit and/or VST3 it works too, but only partially (no feedback or no preset change command from Lemur; I made a table of functionality somewhere in the u-he forum). Depending on development at u-he, it may work for all versions some day (it's not my fault).

My business model is: what goes around comes around. I'm nearly 50 years old and I can tell from experience: it is so!

u-he

KVR Audio

Lemur/Max4Live Template for DIVA