Hi, did you get anywhere with this problem ?tatanka wrote:Hello bibz1st,
that is my next conclusion: if I have some time I will try out a project with some "low" on cpu VSTi an see what happens. But I cant hide that I was kind of shocked about these big problems just "add the beginning" of my Mulab UL experience. And about this big difference compared to Tracktion. Of course I can kill Tracktion too (mostly when I overuse the ram with samples), but in this Mulab Project was nothing special. Just a short list as far as I remember:
- Modelonia (2 X)
- Microrock
- DK+
all from Nusofting
- Kontakt
- Sampletank
Sampler, light on CPU, RAM was only 3,5 from 8 so that must not be the problem
- Eclipsis (2 X)
- AvatarST
- Pyrite Free
As I mentioned before, while trying to reconstruct the project Mulab stopped asking for the missing plugins even before it comes to any effects in the mastering channel (where I had put some together for a mastering mux).
The problem occured not while playing but with player in rest and just opening a loaded and before working plugin, so Midinotes etc. must not be a problem the same.
Would be glad for any additional tips, I am not grumbling and havent tried that long time with the free version for now giving up soon after buyhing the UL but...
Richard
For me instable ....
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- KVRAF
- 1925 posts since 29 Mar, 2013
Beauty is only skin deep,
Ugliness, however, goes right the way through
Ugliness, however, goes right the way through
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1670 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
Hi bibz1st,
not really. I have just given up on reconstructing this project and started a new one. So far it is working but is not finished. I have around ten tracks with mostly the above mentioned plugs. I think I will need 2-3 more tracks and then the work with automation etc. will begin. And then at least my mastering mux with a good bunch of effects in it. Hope it will work or at least I would be able to find out WHAT makes that it crashes.
I have no real idea at all where the problem is/has been. It not seem to be one special VST plugin from the ones I used, cause as I mentioned when it crashes even Kontakt crashes the project.
What I really dont understand why Mulab just stops asking for missing plugins but opens the project as if evrything was fine.
So if anyone has experiece/tips for "critical mass" in case of count of simultan played midi notes/count of tracks/count of racks etc. would be really appreciated.
Do you have something special to regard in case of subtracks ? I will need some of them for automation of cause and have begun to organize "instrument groups" with subtracks (for example a "bass" main track with two subtracks for different riffs, a "melody" main track with subtracks for melody parts etc.).
So just going on trying to figure out the "crash-point".....
not really. I have just given up on reconstructing this project and started a new one. So far it is working but is not finished. I have around ten tracks with mostly the above mentioned plugs. I think I will need 2-3 more tracks and then the work with automation etc. will begin. And then at least my mastering mux with a good bunch of effects in it. Hope it will work or at least I would be able to find out WHAT makes that it crashes.
I have no real idea at all where the problem is/has been. It not seem to be one special VST plugin from the ones I used, cause as I mentioned when it crashes even Kontakt crashes the project.
What I really dont understand why Mulab just stops asking for missing plugins but opens the project as if evrything was fine.
So if anyone has experiece/tips for "critical mass" in case of count of simultan played midi notes/count of tracks/count of racks etc. would be really appreciated.
Do you have something special to regard in case of subtracks ? I will need some of them for automation of cause and have begun to organize "instrument groups" with subtracks (for example a "bass" main track with two subtracks for different riffs, a "melody" main track with subtracks for melody parts etc.).
So just going on trying to figure out the "crash-point".....
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- KVRAF
- 1925 posts since 29 Mar, 2013
Maybe because Mulab had a problem loading certain vsts previously it had put them on the blacklist / disabled them so would not ask for them again, but I think it will still load the tracks with midi on, see if those tracks are targeting the correct racks/instruments. Other than that I dont know, hope you can find the problem then we can all learn by it.
Beauty is only skin deep,
Ugliness, however, goes right the way through
Ugliness, however, goes right the way through
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- KVRAF
- 13865 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
When you load a MuLab session that contains vst plugins which cannot be found in the database, MuLab asks you for locating these plugins, so they can be loaded. If you load a MuLab session that contains vst plugins which are in the database but of which the DLL has been moved andthus cannot be found, MuLab says it cannot find the DLL and the plugin will be marked invalid. In this case write down the VST name(s) of such missing VST plugins, further load that session but ignore it, then add the missing VSTs to the VST database again, and load the session again, then it should be fine as the VSTs can be found again.
In the next M6.3 version i've made sure that in case VSt is in database but DLL cannot be found, MuLab acts the same as if the VST was not in the database thus it will prompt you to locate the VST plugin. That will be a bit more comfortable. Anyway, attention with moving VSTs yourself, cause not all VSTs will like that, it depends on the VST and its type of installation.
In the next M6.3 version i've made sure that in case VSt is in database but DLL cannot be found, MuLab acts the same as if the VST was not in the database thus it will prompt you to locate the VST plugin. That will be a bit more comfortable. Anyway, attention with moving VSTs yourself, cause not all VSTs will like that, it depends on the VST and its type of installation.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1670 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
Hello Jo,
that is the way it should be. The strange thing with my project was that as I mentioned before after installing and cleaning evrything from scratch I try to reconstruct step by step and saved after each step, then load the original project again.
So in each step I only relocate 1 VST that was missing and ignored the rest. Step by step:
1. database empty, load "old project", relocated 1 (first VST), ignored the rest, saved as "old_session1"
2. in database now 1 (first Vst), load "old project" again, Mulab recognize 1 which is now in database and aks for 2 (second VST), relocated 2, ignored the rest, saved as "old_session2"
3......
and so on. That worked for about ten times, so at that time Mulab had around ten from the around 20 VST of the original project in the database. And then, when I openened it for the 11 time it just stops asking for the still missing VST, just opened the project with no message with the structure and the midi tracks but (of course) without the still missing plugins.
That leads me to the conclusion that the same problem that killed the project before (were you assumed installation problems) now prevents the project from restoring. And no, I have not moved any plugins, I have a fixed explorer structure for my vst for using in Tracktion (where you could use an explorer structure for Pluginmanaging) that only will be changed when I add plugins but never ever move any plugins. But the plugins I use for Mulab are nothing new.
I think we will never get to know the cause of the problem, I hope that it will work with my new project, I just try to understand what might have happen for future cases.
Kind regards,
Richard
that is the way it should be. The strange thing with my project was that as I mentioned before after installing and cleaning evrything from scratch I try to reconstruct step by step and saved after each step, then load the original project again.
So in each step I only relocate 1 VST that was missing and ignored the rest. Step by step:
1. database empty, load "old project", relocated 1 (first VST), ignored the rest, saved as "old_session1"
2. in database now 1 (first Vst), load "old project" again, Mulab recognize 1 which is now in database and aks for 2 (second VST), relocated 2, ignored the rest, saved as "old_session2"
3......
and so on. That worked for about ten times, so at that time Mulab had around ten from the around 20 VST of the original project in the database. And then, when I openened it for the 11 time it just stops asking for the still missing VST, just opened the project with no message with the structure and the midi tracks but (of course) without the still missing plugins.
That leads me to the conclusion that the same problem that killed the project before (were you assumed installation problems) now prevents the project from restoring. And no, I have not moved any plugins, I have a fixed explorer structure for my vst for using in Tracktion (where you could use an explorer structure for Pluginmanaging) that only will be changed when I add plugins but never ever move any plugins. But the plugins I use for Mulab are nothing new.
I think we will never get to know the cause of the problem, I hope that it will work with my new project, I just try to understand what might have happen for future cases.
Kind regards,
Richard
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- KVRAF
- 13865 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
Well if even you yourself don't exactly know what happened on your system, i don't know either. Maybe you made a human mistake somewhere, it happens to all of us, we're but humans. I said "maybe", pls don't get me wrong, i don't want to simply blame you, i just mean that sometimes things get complex and we get puzzled.
If you would encounter anything alike and you're sure that it's a bug in MuLab pls let me know the exact steps i must take to repeat the problem, i'll research it then. Thx!
If you would encounter anything alike and you're sure that it's a bug in MuLab pls let me know the exact steps i must take to repeat the problem, i'll research it then. Thx!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1670 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
Hello Jo,
thats why I ask when the problem starts with the crashes of the project if there is some kind of a log file and if I should turn "logging" on to find out more about the causes.
What happens (to summarize the descriptions in the post) is that Mulab just crashes with a red error message at one stage of making a project with midi clips and VST while RAM use is around 3 from 8 used, CPU is between 30 and 40 percent.
Trying reopen the project works in about evry second case without crash. When trying to go on working on the project (yes I have tried saving it under a new name etc.) the following happened:
Of course it could be possible that I have made some mistakes in using Mulab or just simple system mistakes, thats why I tried to reconstruct the project step by step like I described before. But I am relatively sure that I dont have made no mistakes in these steps while trying to reconstruct. My simple attempt to explain as a noob is that there must be some kind of overload somewhere which first crashes the project and then prevent Mulab from correctly reconstructing the project.
I could send you project file, old user directory with VST list or turn logging on while trying to reconstruct the problems if you think that it would make sense. Otherwise I will just hope that evrything works with the new project.
Kind regards,
Richard
thats why I ask when the problem starts with the crashes of the project if there is some kind of a log file and if I should turn "logging" on to find out more about the causes.
What happens (to summarize the descriptions in the post) is that Mulab just crashes with a red error message at one stage of making a project with midi clips and VST while RAM use is around 3 from 8 used, CPU is between 30 and 40 percent.
Trying reopen the project works in about evry second case without crash. When trying to go on working on the project (yes I have tried saving it under a new name etc.) the following happened:
So I know what happens on my system but I dont know why mulab crashes.I have loaded Avatar ST from H.G. . It works but as soon as I try to open it Puff.....
I deleted it, reloaded it but cant open again. So it is crazy: it IS in the project and runs but cant change anything with it.
Exactly the same with Stringstudio VST from AAS.
And with Kontakt, so it could not be blamed on the VST
Of course it could be possible that I have made some mistakes in using Mulab or just simple system mistakes, thats why I tried to reconstruct the project step by step like I described before. But I am relatively sure that I dont have made no mistakes in these steps while trying to reconstruct. My simple attempt to explain as a noob is that there must be some kind of overload somewhere which first crashes the project and then prevent Mulab from correctly reconstructing the project.
I could send you project file, old user directory with VST list or turn logging on while trying to reconstruct the problems if you think that it would make sense. Otherwise I will just hope that evrything works with the new project.
Kind regards,
Richard
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- KVRAF
- 13865 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
No not relevant in this case.tatanka wrote:thats why I ask when the problem starts with the crashes of the project if there is some kind of a log file and if I should turn "logging" on to find out more about the causes.
I've used eg Kontakt in heavy MuLab sessions without prob. But maybe you're loading too big libraries in Kontakt compared to your RAM? Maybe there is a bug in Kontakt that only appears when it's pushed too far? Just questions. Note that i cannot look inside Kontakt or any other VST plugin. It's like a black box with a bunch of ins and outs, that's it.What happens (to summarize the descriptions in the post) is that Mulab just crashes with a red error message at one stage of making a project with midi clips and VST while RAM use is around 3 from 8 used, CPU is between 30 and 40 percent. Trying reopen the project works in about evry second case without crash. When trying to go on working on the project (yes I have tried saving it under a new name etc.) the following happened:So I know what happens on my system but I dont know why mulab crashes.I have loaded Avatar ST from H.G. . It works but as soon as I try to open it Puff.....
I deleted it, reloaded it but cant open again. So it is crazy: it IS in the project and runs but cant change anything with it.
Exactly the same with Stringstudio VST from AAS.
And with Kontakt, so it could not be blamed on the VST
At this point i still don't see any indications that there is a bug in MuLab's VST engine. Though i stay openminded about that though i need prove.
My advice: Before going on with new projects, i would do this test:
* Start with a new session
* Insert Kontakt and load a small library
* Make a little sequence with it and save the session
* Now reload that session
Is everything working fine?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1670 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
Kontakt library used was very small (samplesize < 10 mb), just a little free irish percussion instrument called "schiby bodhran". I just mentioned Kontakt as one example to proove that it is NOT one special VST that causes the problem.
I have used most of the mentioned/used VST in Mulab free over the years with no comparable problem at all (even H.G.`s sometimes very complex and tough synths NEVER crashed mulab free), must be something different, just to repeat myself, cant imagine nothing else then that "somewhere" some capacities are exhausted. Can of course be something in my system the same then something in Mulab. But if in my system it did not cause problems with Tracktion.
Anyway, dont think we will come any further at this point, I will go on with a new project, see if evrything works fine, take a look a sytem resources and (try to be) careful with the VST I choose.
If you mentioned Mulab 6.3, maybe I will then try to load the old project again and see if anything is different.
Kind regards,
Richard
I have used most of the mentioned/used VST in Mulab free over the years with no comparable problem at all (even H.G.`s sometimes very complex and tough synths NEVER crashed mulab free), must be something different, just to repeat myself, cant imagine nothing else then that "somewhere" some capacities are exhausted. Can of course be something in my system the same then something in Mulab. But if in my system it did not cause problems with Tracktion.
Anyway, dont think we will come any further at this point, I will go on with a new project, see if evrything works fine, take a look a sytem resources and (try to be) careful with the VST I choose.
If you mentioned Mulab 6.3, maybe I will then try to load the old project again and see if anything is different.
Kind regards,
Richard
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- KVRAF
- 13865 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1670 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
Hello Jo,
I think I kind of done that already yesterday with starting my new project. It has about 10 tracks at the moment, structured with some subtracks, Kontakt with the mentioned bodhran library is already in, midi clips are imported, have closed and opened the project a few times, evrything is working fine so far.
Maybe I will add one or two tracks and then starting with automation and at least (after making a backup copy !) I will add my mastering mux with the integrated VST-Effects.
Kind regards,
Richard
I think I kind of done that already yesterday with starting my new project. It has about 10 tracks at the moment, structured with some subtracks, Kontakt with the mentioned bodhran library is already in, midi clips are imported, have closed and opened the project a few times, evrything is working fine so far.
Maybe I will add one or two tracks and then starting with automation and at least (after making a backup copy !) I will add my mastering mux with the integrated VST-Effects.
Kind regards,
Richard
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- KVRAF
- 13865 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
Tip: When testing things you need to work in an exact way, and only vary one parameter at a time, in order to accurately narrow down a problem.tatanka wrote:I think I kind of...
That's why i suggested to start from a clear simple situation. From that point you could build up the test, one step at a time.
So it works! So you cannot say Kontakt doesn't work in MuLab.It has about 10 tracks at the moment, structured with some subtracks, Kontakt with the mentioned bodhran library is already in, midi clips are imported, have closed and opened the project a few times, evrything is working fine so far.
If the problem you're experiencing only occurs in more complex/heavy sessions, then it sounds like something is crashing due to an out of memory condition. Just a supposition. I rather suspect a VST than MuLab, unless you can prove otherwise. Anyway, IF it is due to an OOM, then you'll have to avoid that situation anyway, cause even if the crash would be fixed by the responsible developer, you won't be able to do what you want to do cause there is not enough memory for it.
Another possibility is that you're using a VST that doesn't like multiple instancing or multi-core support. You could try testing that as well, VST per VST.
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- KVRAF
- 13865 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
NB: If any other users would experience similar issues as tatanka, please let me know, cause that would add important parts to this puzzle.
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- KVRAF
- 7412 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
Just to contrast, rather than help directly, unfortunately. In Reaper, Kontakt 5 will crash reliably for me with two (empty) instances open (I can have as many as I like loaded, with nearly all my 32GB of RAM used without a tremor but when two instances show their UI together, a crash is highly likely). I can't get it to crash in MuLab, though... Native Instruments checked the logs (the crash appears to be in Kontakt) but said "not us", so I guess it's a Reaper bug. (Then I saw NI Replika get an update to fix a multiple instances bug... but nothing from Reaper yet.) Almost everything else I do in MuLab is with built-ins, though.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1670 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
Hello Jo,
sorry for not being exact and concrete enough in my descriptions
. Maybe I should have written less but more clearly....
I think you are right with your "out of memory" supposition, that was just what I ment with:
So it was just exitement here
I am with my UNLIMITED Mulab lets do my things like I did in Tracktion but better and faster and....then it crashed 
What I have to understand is that the bottleneck in Mulab seems to be another then in Tracktion. There my main problem was really overused RAM with too many samples used. In Mulab it seems to be somewhere else, I dont know but would like too find out for further more adapted use.
I am getting closer now to the problem I think with the new project. Maybe two pad tracks with complete chords are not too optimal in addition to two drum tracks and.....
But now in the new project I get the "normal" warning signals I know from other DAW (unstable CPU Meter, a little crackling in the sound...), I can deal with that (of course the dream of the 24 tracks with high intensive synth on my last year reconditioned I3 with still old soundblaster card will never die
).
What makes me puzzled where these reactions I have never seen before: VST plays well with no warning in the project but can not be reopened and reloaded etc.. In Tracktion I had a clear experience: when the program says: cant load the next VST (no matter which) I know thats it, should better downgrade, otherwise....
Sorry for taking so much of your precious time, I am sure I will learn how to find out and master in Mulab, please blame it just on my .
Kind regards,
Richard
sorry for not being exact and concrete enough in my descriptions
. Maybe I should have written less but more clearly....I think you are right with your "out of memory" supposition, that was just what I ment with:
For me as simple hobby user possibilities for cause studys are limited.that "somewhere" some capacities are exhausted
So it was just exitement here
I am with my UNLIMITED Mulab lets do my things like I did in Tracktion but better and faster and....then it crashed What I have to understand is that the bottleneck in Mulab seems to be another then in Tracktion. There my main problem was really overused RAM with too many samples used. In Mulab it seems to be somewhere else, I dont know but would like too find out for further more adapted use.
I am getting closer now to the problem I think with the new project. Maybe two pad tracks with complete chords are not too optimal in addition to two drum tracks and.....
But now in the new project I get the "normal" warning signals I know from other DAW (unstable CPU Meter, a little crackling in the sound...), I can deal with that (of course the dream of the 24 tracks with high intensive synth on my last year reconditioned I3 with still old soundblaster card will never die
).What makes me puzzled where these reactions I have never seen before: VST plays well with no warning in the project but can not be reopened and reloaded etc.. In Tracktion I had a clear experience: when the program says: cant load the next VST (no matter which) I know thats it, should better downgrade, otherwise....
Sorry for taking so much of your precious time, I am sure I will learn how to find out and master in Mulab, please blame it just on my
.Kind regards,
Richard