KVR Audio

jtenney · Post by **jtenney** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:06 am

And here's one more, a kind of atonal "country dance" on a calliope-like instrument, actually a field of sheep, with shepherd and dog, that I recorded in Poland. My mind just boggles at the possibilities in KS. I feel like I have taken just the first baby step on a long journey...

https://soundcloud.com/jtenney/kaleidoscope-2

secretkillerofnames · Post by **secretkillerofnames** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:54 am

Sampleconstruct wrote:more holy shit:

I better stop now before posting all this boring shit again.

Well i'm actually glad Deastman provoked you - these are all great - i've made nothing that sounds like this yet but i'm certainly going to try. You sure you aren't using CrusherX in the background of that Vocal FIR example?

Valery_Kondakoff · Post by **Valery_Kondakoff** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:32 am

deastman wrote: I've been demoing Kaleidoscope, and I really love what it does. But it seems like almost everything I produce with it has a very similar sound. And it is fairly expensive for just that one type of sound.
Is anyone else having the same conflict? Any comments?

I'm pretty sure this is because the resonators tuning is always static. There is an impressive way to modulate the amplitude of the resonators (with two image maps), but the tuning will always stay the same.

I'm pretty sure the developers should introduce a way to dynamically manipulate the tuning. Envelopes? Another pair of image maps? Something more clever?

Andrew, are there plans to introduce tuning modulation?

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:31 am

secretkillerofnames wrote:
Sampleconstruct wrote:more holy shit:

I better stop now before posting all this boring shit again.

Well i'm actually glad Deastman provoked you - these are all great - i've made nothing that sounds like this yet but i'm certainly going to try. You sure you aren't using CrusherX in the background of that Vocal FIR example?

There is no cheating in my vids, why should there be

When crusherX is used in one of those demos/tracks, it is/will be mentioned. After all it is one of my all time favourite music/sound apps and I will promote it where I can, although not at all being affiliated to the developer.

Andrew Souter · Post by **Andrew Souter** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:49 am

Valery_Kondakoff wrote: I'm pretty sure this is because the resonators tuning is always static.

This does not really matter when dealing with a huge number of voices. FTT bins are fixed in frequency for example, and yet you can do FFT/iFFT of a sine wave frequency sweep quite perfectly for example...

Valery_Kondakoff wrote: There is an impressive way to modulate the amplitude of the resonators (with two image maps), but the tuning will always stay the same.

I'm pretty sure the developers should introduce a way to dynamically manipulate the tuning. Envelopes? Another pair of image maps? Something more clever?

Andrew, are there plans to introduce tuning modulation?

There are plans, hopes, dreams, aspirations, for many many things, yes, sure.

Andrew Souter · Post by **Andrew Souter** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:53 am

Re: "Sounding the same" and "it has a signature sound" is perhaps simply an indication of still being in the exploration stage of KS. Many of the demo sounds, certainty do NOT sound the same.

Kaleidoscope is both an effects processor as well as a content generator, meaning that it is possible to synthesize completely new sounds without any input sound or MIDI performance data as well as to transform incoming audio signals in other-worldly manners.

The sound Kaleidoscope produces is a complex interaction of the characteristics of the input signal, the resonator settings, the current tonality or tuning, the visual performance data in two independent Image Maps, and the timing for each. It offers the ultimate control over the organization of sound in time, frequency, and space and can produce an entire universe of new forms of music and utterly unique sound-design.

The "signature sound" you might be referring to has to do with these kind uses when applied to the internal White Noise generator AND Feedback is high:

• Additive Synthesis
• Vocoder-like Effects
• Dynamic Resonator Effects
• Harmonic & Tonal Reverb

I can see how these classes of things can be perceived as being similar when applied to white noise, and using high feedback. Sure. However, even there the results are vastly different depending on Image content, timing, and tonality...

And there are classes of use that also have nothing to do with the above, such as:

• Dynamic Filter Effects
• Extreme Nano Textural Effects
• Rhythmic Filtering & Synth Patterns
• Morphing Delay Effects
• Extreme Spatialization & FIRs
• Automated Volume & Panning
• Granular Effects

My immediate advice is: try lower feedback settings on real musical signals. You will find lots of magic here...

Andrew Souter · Post by **Andrew Souter** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:07 am

To be perfectly honest, the WHITE control was a last minute addition... I think the first few betas did not even have it. (We were going to save it for something later.) But I spent most of development period using white noise as the test signal to make sure KS was working correctly, and the results are so damn cool and usable this way that we decided to just add it to the 1.0.0 version. And then I actually ended up making most of the factory presets this way.

It is a good way to learn what to expect from KS also because it eliminates one of the variables: the input signal. If you feed it white noise, you can think of the process as a subtractive process like a sculpture. KS will remove everything that is NOT part of the tuning/tonality in a time-and-space-varying way. When you feed it pure white noise, it is easiest to understand exactly what the contribution from KS is.

When using it on normal musical signals, there is a complex interaction that is harder to predict intuitively. So using White = 200% is good for the learning stage. You are not required, or advised to use it this way forever.

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:11 pm

jtenney wrote:And here's one more, a kind of atonal "country dance" on a calliope-like instrument, actually a field of sheep, with shepherd and dog, that I recorded in Poland. My mind just boggles at the possibilities in KS. I feel like I have taken just the first baby step on a long journey...

https://soundcloud.com/jtenney/kaleidoscope-2

Totally reminds me of a piece my father did in the 1950s named "Gesang der Jünglinge", in which he derived sine clusters and other electronic sounds from a young boy's voice singing lyrics from the bible/book of Daniel.

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:12 pm

jtenney wrote:Maaan, KS is hypnotic! I have just barely scratched the surface, very barely, and already I feel like I'm on another planet of sound! Here is an example of a sketchy effort:

https://soundcloud.com/jtenney/kaleidoscope-1

This brass-heavy orchestral music is actually a field of frogs, recorded in Poland, running through a waveform I made of a turkey gobbling. Amazing!!

Great material too!

jtenney · Post by **jtenney** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:14 pm

Well, Simon, I certainly didn't expect the "country dance" to turn out the way it did... KS is leading me by the nose, so far, and I am just picking and choosing what to save. But it's interesting you should mention "Gesang der Jünglinge" since I listened to it a lot when I was a kid: I mean, 13 or so, late 50s. I was crazy about electronic music then, and was lucky enough to have sources around San Francisco, including one VERY hip radio station, to hear it. And now, 50+ years later, I'm CREATING such sound?? Gaaaah...

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:10 pm

Here are some metallic beats, one of my Tremor beats processed with KS using two fresh images and a tuning file from the factory library:

Daags · Post by **Daags** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:58 pm

deastman wrote:Okay, I'm just going to throw this out there. I've been demoing Kaleidoscope, and I really love what it does. But it seems like almost everything I produce with it has a very similar sound. And it is fairly expensive for just that one type of sound. I've been watching all of Simon's videos, and of course they are awesome. But again, they all pretty much end up being the same dreamy, ambient spectral smearing drones. I do love that sound, but it's a high price to pay for that sound. And we're talking about an intro price! I've been struggling with this multiple times a day ever since it was released: "Yes I'll buy it." "No, I won't buy it." "Yes, I will." "No, I won't." "Yes." "No."

Is anyone else having the same conflict? Any comments?

yep. I said the same thing very early on. And yes it's very expensive for just this sound, and yes that's just the intro price! And enthusiastic or promising responses to what I would call rudimentary feature requests ('launch image editor' button) were far from forthcoming. All that being said though, I think it would be fine if you're feeling optimistic, but when you try to weigh it up against the advertising hyperbole artschool mish mash about the vast sound design possibilities... it just doesn't stack up.

When I mentioned this earlier on, I referred to the quite frankly risible Ridley Scott reference (something along the lines of Kaleidoscope being capable of creating any kind of sound from X to lazer beams for hovering cars in the latest Ridley Scott flick...) ... but it seems to have been removed now, or I can't find it again anyway.

Sorry but, like you mention, it sounds nice...but everything is sounding so so samey. Certainly not living up to any of the following gems (and I stopped going through the advertising copy after about 30% of what's on the website, but it pretty much all reads like this):

auto-hyperbole advertising copy print machine wrote:Kaleidoscope is the ultimate sound-design tool and creative effects toy! It is an entirely new class of visual audio effects processors and is one of the most unique generative signal processing tools to come to market in recent history. Technically speaking, Kaleidoscope is a massively parallel bank of physically modeled resonators that can be tuned completely arbitrarily with scientific precision and dynamically modulated over time by over two million points of automation. In simplistic terms, Kaleidoscope uses pictures to control sound!
Applications and Uses

Kaleidoscope is a tool for intrepid sonic explorers who seek to help tell humanity's biggest narratives. It is designed with one goal in mind: to inspire and invigorate composers, sound-designers, and artists to push the boundaries of what is possible in cutting edge sound-design. Many products claim to offer never-before heard sounds. Kaleidoscope actually delivers them - in unfathomable abundance and ultimate fidelity. If you work in any of the following areas you owe it to yourself to check out Kaleidoscope!
• Sound-Design for Film, Television & Games • Scoring for Film, Television & Games • Ambient Music • Electronic Music • Academic & Scientific Research into Sound and New Music

Kaleidoscope represents literally an entire universe of sonic possibilities and is limited only by your imagination and willingness to think differently. Some of its most common applications are:

In music we call organization in time rhythm, and we call organization in frequency tonality. Tonality includes things such as tuning systems, musical scales, and harmony. Rhythm includes things such as tempo, meter, syncopation and groove. Kaleidoscope seeks to vastly expand our understanding of these definitions, rewrite music theory for the information age,

Kaleidoscope's core technology, algorithm structure, modular flexibility, and unfathomable depth will keep the world's best sound-designers actively exploring its possibilities for decades to come and it is destined to have a large impact on sound-design for visual media and electronic music.

This is undeniably one of the most powerful and efficient ways for non-technical artists and composers to create completely unique and totally world-class sound-design without actually learning the intricate details of this highly technical discipline. It is simple to stay in the creative flow, and use Kaleidoscope in relative autopilot mode to quickly create material that transforms your project from something that sounds like everyone else on the market to something completely unique and personal.

the last one is most interesting of all, and particularly when considered in the context of everything sounding samey. It's samey by design ? so people can make sounds with the minimal amount of effort possible ? and the contradiction of course is "It is simple to stay in the creative flow, and use Kaleidoscope in relative autopilot mode to quickly create material that transforms your project from something that sounds like everyone else on the market to something completely unique and personal." .... ya right. the opposite is or will be true, given that kind of suggested usage. particularly if more lazy sound designers for visual media start using kaleidoscope for their sound beds.

and also this beaut:
"Kaleidoscope's core technology, algorithm structure, modular flexibility, and unfathomable depth will keep the world's best sound-designers actively exploring its possibilities for decades to come and it is destined to have a large impact on sound-design for visual media and electronic music."

right. they'll be exploring for decades alright, trying to generate stuff that doesn't sound the same as everyone else using kaleidoscope. and true enough, it may have a large impact on sound design for visual media. but positive or negative ? at this stage it's looking to me like the sound-design for visual media equivalent of supatrigga for breaks.

fingers crossed for a 'launch image editor' button though.

Andrew Souter · Post by **Andrew Souter** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:26 pm

Daags wrote: fingers crossed for a 'launch image editor' button though.

Two questions:

1) If you feel the product doesn't meet your expectations for some reason, as one might logically conclude from you post above, and is perfectly within your right to decide btw, why do you care if we do or do not have such a button?

2) Can I ask what your background is out of curiosity?

And two statements:

1) Regarding the request you have brought up several times now: I did already respond to you a few times, and I said a page or two back that we might have found a way to handle this. Repeating your statement several times in an argumentative manner does not help it happen any faster. Software development takes time to get right. We have already launched the product and released one update in the first three weeks of it's life. Please give us a moment to breath before assuming we are ignoring your feature request. I mentioned there are other pressing things we are working on too, such a Retina Display issues.

2) Seems to me the majority of the web listing's 5 pages deals mostly with explaining technical things so that people understand the product... (and actually that reminds me I need to fill in the Timing page. thanks!)

And to conclude, I will repeat my favorite quote from someone who has actually bought and is using the product:

The hyperbole was actually understated...

(The RS reference is on the the Tuning page btw

)

Andrew Souter · Post by **Andrew Souter** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:22 pm

Phorous · Post by **Phorous** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:34 pm

I feel like quite a few of the parts I have done with Kaleidscope likely could not be easily recognized as being created with it especially after applying effects in the context of a production.

Yes, Kaleidoscope has a distinct signature sound with certain settings as has been pointed out multiple times. However, as people use it more I know we are bound to discover creative new ways to use it... I know I have been now that I am working on exploring different ways to integrate it into my productions besides the obvious "high feedback many partials + reverb" sound

2CAudio Kaleidoscope | It's A Trip | Latest Update 1.1