2CAudio Kaleidoscope | It's A Trip | Latest Update 1.1

[NNevez]

Could not resist Kaleidoscope. Just had to buy it.

This is an incredible plugin for what we can hear in this thread and i can see hours of fun with it. However, in my computer (2007 macbook pro) i could only listen to one or two presets because it just blows my cpu!

I can´t even twist knobs because it overloads immediately!

Can´t wait for the skylake macbook pro that i am going to buy to be able to play with Kaleidoscope.

For now i will have to find the presets that are playable in my system.

[Andrew Souter]

Could not resist Kaleidoscope. Just had to buy it.

This is an incredible plugin for what we can hear in this thread and i can see hours of fun with it. However, in my computer (2007 macbook pro) i could only listen to one or two presets because it just blows my cpu!

I can´t even twist knobs because it overloads immediately!

Can´t wait for the skylake macbook pro that i am going to buy to be able to play with Kaleidoscope.

For now i will have to find the presets that are playable in my system.

Set the buffer of KS AND your host to 1024. Reload both. Things should be much smoother. Are they? What host?

Your CPU should be able run a few instances at max settings with those settings.

[rustman]

Andrew- Please remind me. Did you say earlier in the thread that the CPU savings between 1024 and 2048 was negligible?

[NNevez]

Set the buffer of KS AND your host to 1024. Reload both. Things should be much smoother. Are they? What host?

Your CPU should be able run a few instances at max settings with those settings.

I did that already. There are some playable presets, i knew this from the demo. I am in Logic X.

Twisting knobs immediately overloads the CPU. (mainly the feedback knob)
But there are some presets where i can turn knobs. (Not much )
How about limiting the resonators? Maybe that helps.

But don´t worry, i already knew that my computer was not going to handle it properly and i intend to upgrade during this year anyway.

Thanks!

[Andrew Souter]

Set the buffer of KS AND your host to 1024. Reload both. Things should be much smoother. Are they? What host?

Your CPU should be able run a few instances at max settings with those settings.

I did that already. There are some playable presets, i knew this from the demo. I am in Logic X.

Twisting knobs immediately overloads the CPU. (mainly the feedback knob)
But there are some presets where i can turn knobs. (Not much )
How about limiting the resonators? Maybe that helps.

But don´t worry, i already knew that my computer was not going to handle it properly and i intend to upgrade during this year anyway.

Thanks!

You should generally disable this warning in Logic. Chaning knobs, especilaly feedback, is not expected to be fast enough for real-time or smooth quite yet. It requires massive calculations to be performed. So you should think of changing the knobs as like setting up conditions, and then let KS provide perfected smooth automation via 2 million automation points from the 2 pictures.

Think of it as two separate processes:

1) Set up of Conditions
2) realtime processing

Set up is not expected to be smooth at this point. Even on the fastest computers. So changing most knobs will result in some "crackles". This is because we are updating things are are too heavy to update smoothly in real-time.

Real-time processing should be perfectly smooth. Even your 2007 laptop should be perfectly fine to run 3 or 4 instances of 512 resonators using dual res modes, and dual mod modes (i.e. the highest possible CPU usage conditions...)

[Andrew Souter]

Andrew- Please remind me. Did you say earlier in the thread that the CPU savings between 1024 and 2048 was negligible?

Generally the addition benefits of larger buffer sizes decrease as the buffer get very large, yes.

This topic can vary a decent amount depending on your host, hardware, and OS.

We do two primary tests to measure CPU uage:

1) How many instances can we load without drop-outs, one instance per stereo audio track.
2) How long does it take to render a 5 minute audio file with one instance and nothing else in the host project.


We have different presets to run these tests on.

In one preset we use 512 "2 Spring" resonators and dual dynamic modulation. This is about as CPU intense as possible. (2 String mode, would be slightly more, and we run that test too.).

In Logic 10, on my 12-core Mac Pro Cylander, this is what I get:


64 71 258%
128 49 178%
256 37 135%
512 32 116%
1024 27.5 100%

1st number is the buffer.
2nd number is the time in seconds that it takes to render/export a 5 minute file at 44.1, 1X OS.

Third number is the relative increase compared to the 1024 buffer value.

Logic does not support higher buffers than 1024. Cubase does, and I see some improvements at 2048, but, overall renders from Cubase are much slower than from Logic at the moment, and this unknown why. I don't think this is a KS/2CAudio issue. I think Cubase renders are simply slower for some reason. I am exploring this more.

The fastest renders I have seen from any host is Sound Forge OSX 2.0 using the AU plug-in. I've seen ~21sec here.

Maybe I will post the test presets I use to measure these, and you guys can try on your systems if you like.

[Musical Gym]

Would it make sense, or would it be possible to have initial buffer settings presets?
Load the preset and KS automatically switches settings to assigned buffer preset...
Probably not a good idea, but thought I'd throw it out there..
I haven't used KS enough to really have an intelligent notion about it..

[rustman]

First off- thanks for the thorough reply. You're giving me 12 core envy.


Rendering a 5 minute file with one instance can take 10+ minutes in Cubase on my machine. To be fair,I don't recall, but those renders likely had B2 at max offline settings as well. Regardless, it is what it is. That's why I had asked prior whether I was into overkill territory when rendering B2 at max offline settings. I might try rendering at minimum settings while developing a song and coming back to render at max later once the creative process is done.

[rustman]

Would it make sense, or would it be possible to have initial buffer settings presets?
Load the preset and KS automatically switches settings to assigned buffer preset...
Probably not a good idea, but thought I'd throw it out there..
I haven't used KS enough to really have an intelligent notion about it..

But you still need to configure your interface to also use that buffer size. Changing it on the fly in KS is probably a recipe for a lockup in Cubase. Your mileage may vary.

[Andrew Souter]

Would it make sense, or would it be possible to have initial buffer settings presets?
Load the preset and KS automatically switches settings to assigned buffer preset...
Probably not a good idea, but thought I'd throw it out there..
I haven't used KS enough to really have an intelligent notion about it..

I am not sure why we would want to have "per preset" buffer settings?? WHat is the goal of your suggestion?

Also, switching the buffer size "on the fly" (i.e. instantly without reloading the plug-in) is not entirely safe in many hosts. We would like to be able to do this, but it seems too dangerous to do at the moment.

[Andrew Souter]

Rendering a 5 minute file with one instance can take 10+ minutes in Cubase on my machine. To be fair,I don't recall, but those renders likely had B2 at max offline settings as well. Regardless, it is what it is. That's why I had asked prior whether I was into overkill territory when rendering B2 at max offline settings. I might try rendering at minimum settings while developing a song and coming back to render at max later once the creative process is done.

Well, for testing, you need to be sure you are using KS and ONLY KS. And the only thing running on your system should be your audio host. Quit all other apps.

B2 at the absolute max settings is overkill yes. That's why it's called "obsession". 2x OS and "Perfection" interpolation is more than enough for 99% of users...

[Musical Gym]

I am not sure why we would want to have "per preset" buffer settings?? WHat is the goal of your suggestion

I probably should not have made the suggestion. I was not thinking of "per preset" buffer settings...only a few "buffer" global presets which would only adjust various global settings automatically without the need to dial each one in..
Sorry for the confusion..

[Andrew Souter]

I am not sure why we would want to have "per preset" buffer settings?? WHat is the goal of your suggestion

I probably should not have made the suggestion. I was not thinking of "per preset" buffer settings...only a few "buffer" global presets which would only adjust various global settings automatically without the need to dial each one in..
Sorry for the confusion..

Why would that be any easier than just changing the setting on the Info page? I guess it is theoretically two less steps (no need to change to info page and back), but I think it would be highly confusing to users to mix up presets and preferences.


It would be ideal if the buffer setting change on the Info Page would be instant, without a reload, but this kind of thing has a habit of crashing many hosts, so we have avoided that for the moment...

[Musical Gym]

I agree, not a good idea..

[NNevez]

You should generally disable this warning in Logic. Chaning knobs, especilaly feedback, is not expected to be fast enough for real-time or smooth quite yet. It requires massive calculations to be performed. So you should think of changing the knobs as like setting up conditions, and then let KS provide perfected smooth automation via 2 million automation points from the 2 pictures.

Think of it as two separate processes:

1) Set up of Conditions
2) realtime processing

Set up is not expected to be smooth at this point. Even on the fastest computers. So changing most knobs will result in some "crackles". This is because we are updating things are are too heavy to update smoothly in real-time.

Real-time processing should be perfectly smooth. Even your 2007 laptop should be perfectly fine to run 3 or 4 instances of 512 resonators using dual res modes, and dual mod modes (i.e. the highest possible CPU usage conditions...)

Ok, got it. Thanks!
I´ve got to read the manual.

Yes, what kills the playing is the "system overload" message. There is no stuttering or crackles, the message just kills the sound.
So it is ok to disable this warning?
Kaleidoscope is not going to burn my computer?