Umm, I have just bought tracktion, and I live in the EU, and it was $80, so is that VAT included for us now, or how does that work?
BTW I have bought it, because that's what I can afford. (And it's a pretty good piece of software as well) I hope that if the price does go up for 2 I can still use T1, until I'll be ablo to buy T2, because that will take a long time if it really goes up. So I think that it's present pricing does have quite some impact on it's sales.
Just my 2 cents
Beno...! Mackie..! Jules...! Whats the word?
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- KVRist
- 274 posts since 11 Jun, 2004
actually thinking about it this was a silly test to suggest
heres why
as far as i know mackie manufacture there products in the us
this would make them a lot dearer over here for the reasons chico suggests
but surely the distribution model for T2 would involve pressing cd's within each tax province
im pretty sure mackie dont own a pressing plant so this makes sense that this is the way they would work
conversly this would also show that Cakewalk are absolutly taking the piss out of international users
i create a lot of 3d GFX and have seen this same thing happen with poser and various other packages
even though they are being sold over the net
i have got round this before by getting someone in the states to buy the software for me and then sending it privatly
but this may actually be ilegal
cheers
winston
heres why
as far as i know mackie manufacture there products in the us
this would make them a lot dearer over here for the reasons chico suggests
but surely the distribution model for T2 would involve pressing cd's within each tax province
im pretty sure mackie dont own a pressing plant so this makes sense that this is the way they would work
conversly this would also show that Cakewalk are absolutly taking the piss out of international users
i create a lot of 3d GFX and have seen this same thing happen with poser and various other packages
even though they are being sold over the net
i have got round this before by getting someone in the states to buy the software for me and then sending it privatly
but this may actually be ilegal
cheers
winston
I aint famous enough to be handin out signatures
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- KVRAF
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
Yeah, I considered asking a friend to buy the ring I was on about and then getting them to wear it while they flew to britain, 'cos they were coming over for a holiday anyway. Thing is, even though this would probably have worked (when did customs ever ask you if the jewelry you're wearing is yours or not?), if there were any problems you'd get done for smuggling and tax evasion. Which basically is a jail term ...
Like I say, probably would have been fine, but didn't feel like I could ask somebody else to do it, just in case.
Like I say, probably would have been fine, but didn't feel like I could ask somebody else to do it, just in case.
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRist
- 47 posts since 19 May, 2004 from Muenchen
Just to remove a bit of the EU/VAT mystery:
Actually, everybody must pay VAT for every product he buys, in whatever country. If you buy it in a shop, the dealer will automatically charge it from you (but will have it included already in the price for your convenience in most countries). If you get it shipped from a different country, customs office will charge it.
If you buy from an online shop which does not charge you the VAT, you have to pay it yourself. Of course, nobody is doing so... hence, most countries try to force as many online shops as possible to charge the VAT themselves. That's the whole story to it.
As a result, you will find many shops charging VAT for customers from exactly those countries where the shop and it's branches reside. An example for that can be seen in the online store of Project SAM (www.projectsam.com), which is based in The Netherlands (part of EU).
Since Mackie has real branch offices in Eurpe (e.g. in UK and in Germany), they should theoretically charge VAT from EU customers, but they are obviously currently not doing it. I guess their lawyers have found a way around it. Such a way would be e.g. if the Mackie online store were an independent company not in the possession of Mackie themselves, and I'm sure that there are other ways, since Mackie is indeed mostly US-based.
To sum it up: don't worry, the VAT charge for T probably won't come - and even if it came, you could afford it, and it would in fact only make it easier for you not to do anything illegal.
Enjoy,
malamut
Actually, everybody must pay VAT for every product he buys, in whatever country. If you buy it in a shop, the dealer will automatically charge it from you (but will have it included already in the price for your convenience in most countries). If you get it shipped from a different country, customs office will charge it.
If you buy from an online shop which does not charge you the VAT, you have to pay it yourself. Of course, nobody is doing so... hence, most countries try to force as many online shops as possible to charge the VAT themselves. That's the whole story to it.
As a result, you will find many shops charging VAT for customers from exactly those countries where the shop and it's branches reside. An example for that can be seen in the online store of Project SAM (www.projectsam.com), which is based in The Netherlands (part of EU).
Since Mackie has real branch offices in Eurpe (e.g. in UK and in Germany), they should theoretically charge VAT from EU customers, but they are obviously currently not doing it. I guess their lawyers have found a way around it. Such a way would be e.g. if the Mackie online store were an independent company not in the possession of Mackie themselves, and I'm sure that there are other ways, since Mackie is indeed mostly US-based.
To sum it up: don't worry, the VAT charge for T probably won't come - and even if it came, you could afford it, and it would in fact only make it easier for you not to do anything illegal.
Enjoy,
malamut
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Thanks for a solid reply - there's some stirring stuff in here Rack Bitz!Rack Bitz wrote:i think mackie are gonna want to maximise there distribution efforts
so i would fully expect a cd release of tracktion
but i dont think that it will just be the download
im pretty sure well see extra plugins and other stuff on the cd
this would be the usual business model for any distributor
so perhaps these people who think tracktion cant move up into the $200 price range are wrong
once tracktion ships with a lot more goodies i believe it will quite literally be the only reasonable host available
imagine tracktion with lots of third party goodies for around $200
this would be pretty awesome
but like i said before it doesnt really matter how much we debate this only time will tell
oh and by the way the price of tracktion isnt a valid selling point for a large portion of users me included
i want to use something that works like tracktion and i will pay for it
anyone who goes back a few years will tell the same story because most of em have already paid a huge price for packages there probably not even using anymore
and the thing is people havent crossed over to tracktion because it was cheap(even though it is)
they crossed over because it gave them a new creative way of working
the bells and whistles posse arent here yet but as soon as T2 hits the markets i would expect there to be a completly different vibe to this forum
mainly because with a bigger release and a bigger market share there will be less and less focus on how easy tracktion is to use and more of a focus on the new big feature
hopefully the new users (and theres going to be an absolute shitload mackie dont do fuckall by halves)
will get into tracktions ability to not need these multitude of features
but with mass market penetration comes the individual needs of those masses
personally i think jules and mackie are upto the task
so i really dont give a flying frig
but i will add i think there are going to be a lot of unsatisfied v1 users out there because a single feature they were expecting didnt get implemented in v2
oh and im not talking about bug fixes
v2 needs to be a mass market product
and no one knows the mass market better than mackie
in conclusion id just like to point to UAD
they were ditributed by mackie no probs
the company employs nearly double the staff since it became distributed by mackie
now they are not distributed by mackie but are a much bigger ands stronger company from there time with mackie
so lets just wait and see
i think all looks well
cheers
I didn't realise that Sonar is SO MUCH cheaper stateside, and I guess this is one reason it's "America's favourite sequencer"... Mackie will have to bear in mind the (cheaper that EU) Sonar price when placing/pricing T2.
I like the idea of T2 coming with a better set of bundled plugs, because I think this is a (small) weakness at present. I am a little jealous of Sonar for its Sonitus and Lexicon effects
and I'm not big on the mda effects bundled in the Tracktion 1 download 
... (and why do DX10 and JX10 not have their proper interfaces 
)At present I rewire Reason 2.5 within Tracktion as a way of accessing better synths and samplers (I use the Orkester Sound Bank a lot - also Redrum for pretty much all drum samples/programming
). I'm not about to desert Reason of course, but it would be great to have more on offer within T2 itself.While on the subject of T2 requests, I would like to see the track volume/pan rectangular (as its not really a plug) and a fixed size - I don't much like the way it shrinks to a slither as you add filters. Probably been mentioned before (and perhaps there's a workaround that I don;t know??) Anyone else agree?
Anyway, I'm also in the "I'll pay whatever it costs" camp, because I love the Traction workflow - so much more user friendly that Cubase SX, which I used before. In fact, I would like to see T2 in a box and costing more, because I think it deserves wider acceptance and respect than it presently gets... (contoversial, heh?
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 14 Jul, 2004
Yes, you have to pay VAT on imported goods, which in my country, and I suppose elsewhere as well, is charged by the costums office, based on costums if you are an individual, natural person, and not a business entity. If you are a business entity costums only charge costums duty, and you have to pay VAT yourself when you usually do.
However, downloading software and paying for a license electronicaly has nothing to do with costums, and is not under the category of goods, but of services, and it was VAT free up until last year in the EU. It is still duty free, and there are no other taxes on it here (in this country) except for VAT. However VAT should be payed by those who offer the service, because according to the law, he is the one who actually has to pay it to the goverment. (Of course he charges it to the user, but it's his responsibility to pay it in, since the end-user is not under the VAT-law's operation, but he is. The end-user is only under that if it's a business entity, or is a natural person who is importing goods, but not services, because then he simply has to pay to the costums office, doesn't have to fill out lots of papers just to do a small purchase, I suppose they can't expect that.) So to the law this looks as if the service was performed in the country of the costumer, and VAT should be payed accordingly.
This is done by registering in an EU member state for VAT, and then charging it on the invoice. As I understand it is the invoice itself that must include VAT if the buyer is a natural person who is not under VAT operation (He is, if he is doing business with the software after which he is required to pay VAT, then it's the same to him as if he was a business entity, and he must hold a EU VAT Number, which he must give to his supplier, that allows the supplier to not charge VAT, and makes him responsible of taking care of it. If he does make money with his own private business, but not with that particular software he counts as a normal natural person).
NOW, do take all this with a lot of salt, as I'm not a lawyer, but I have done a lot of reading on this and this is what I came to. However I might be completely wrong, this is only my opinion
And this is mainly based on my country's laws as I interpret them, and EU informative websites.
This whole thing came because US-based businesses were in advantage to EU based ones, since they didn't have to charge VAT for electronic services, while EU based ones had to, so their prices were higher. So there was lobbying, and EU decided that US based businesses should charge VAT as well. However as I understand the buyer did not have to pay VAT on his own before neither, electronic services from third countries (ie outside EU) were VAt exempt.
However, downloading software and paying for a license electronicaly has nothing to do with costums, and is not under the category of goods, but of services, and it was VAT free up until last year in the EU. It is still duty free, and there are no other taxes on it here (in this country) except for VAT. However VAT should be payed by those who offer the service, because according to the law, he is the one who actually has to pay it to the goverment. (Of course he charges it to the user, but it's his responsibility to pay it in, since the end-user is not under the VAT-law's operation, but he is. The end-user is only under that if it's a business entity, or is a natural person who is importing goods, but not services, because then he simply has to pay to the costums office, doesn't have to fill out lots of papers just to do a small purchase, I suppose they can't expect that.) So to the law this looks as if the service was performed in the country of the costumer, and VAT should be payed accordingly.
This is done by registering in an EU member state for VAT, and then charging it on the invoice. As I understand it is the invoice itself that must include VAT if the buyer is a natural person who is not under VAT operation (He is, if he is doing business with the software after which he is required to pay VAT, then it's the same to him as if he was a business entity, and he must hold a EU VAT Number, which he must give to his supplier, that allows the supplier to not charge VAT, and makes him responsible of taking care of it. If he does make money with his own private business, but not with that particular software he counts as a normal natural person).
NOW, do take all this with a lot of salt, as I'm not a lawyer, but I have done a lot of reading on this and this is what I came to. However I might be completely wrong, this is only my opinion
And this is mainly based on my country's laws as I interpret them, and EU informative websites. This whole thing came because US-based businesses were in advantage to EU based ones, since they didn't have to charge VAT for electronic services, while EU based ones had to, so their prices were higher. So there was lobbying, and EU decided that US based businesses should charge VAT as well. However as I understand the buyer did not have to pay VAT on his own before neither, electronic services from third countries (ie outside EU) were VAt exempt.
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- KVRian
- 1349 posts since 12 Jan, 2003 from Paris
headquest wrote:I like the idea of T2 coming with a better set of bundled plugs, because I think this is a (small) weakness at present.I am a little jealous of Sonar for its Sonitus and Lexicon effects
Why don't you buy better effects separatly ?
I have today all the VST effects i need and I would hate to have to pay in T2 for effects i'll never use...
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- KVRian
- 663 posts since 28 Feb, 2003 from out
about tracktion's plugins: I absolutely love the pitchshifter; great for drums and stuff. pity it does not have a dry/wet control.......maybe in the next version, due out 2009 
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
No, ixox clearly stated that it will be -3- years. That means 2007.
C'mon, get your facts straight.
C'mon, get your facts straight.
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- KVRian
- 663 posts since 28 Feb, 2003 from out
ah, sorry, must have been in another timeframeLunch Money wrote:No, ixox clearly stated that it will be -3- years. That means 2007.
C'mon, get your facts straight.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
That's a fair point IxoxIxox wrote:Why don't you buy better effects separatly ?
I have today all the VST effects i need and I would hate to have to pay in T2 for effects i'll never use...
. Being fairly new to all this, though, I'm not altogether sure where to start when it comes to paying out for add-ons. Bundled effects seem like a good idea for someone in my shoes, because it makes it a complete package. At present in addition to the Tracktion native effects (most of which I do use and like as far as they go) I have various freebies - notably the 8 Kjaerhus Classics which I use all the time and like a lot. Also Nyquist EQ, Ambience, Hexaline, and a few others.
Synth-wise I have Synth 1 (which is great), FreeAlpha, Triangles I and II, PolyIblit, and a few others.
Mostly for sounds, though, I rewire in Reason 2.5, my other main software, which is great for sound sources and effects.
I would also welcome a general all-purpose GM MIDI sound set within Tracktion (like the old Universal Sound Module in cubase).
Do you have any top recommendations for getting better plugs without spending and arm and a leg, and which work well in the Tracktion environment?
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I have to admit, I've been going on almost all freebies, also. I would welcome a bundle of effects including some decent "mastering" (or the home-studio version, at least) plugins.
At the same time, if it's something that would significantly jack up the price, I'd pass.
Now that I'm in my first project that's full of hundreds of audio clips, I'd happily upgrade just for track folders and loop/cycle/stacked (whatever you call it) recording.
Greg
At the same time, if it's something that would significantly jack up the price, I'd pass.
Now that I'm in my first project that's full of hundreds of audio clips, I'd happily upgrade just for track folders and loop/cycle/stacked (whatever you call it) recording.
Greg
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- KVRist
- 274 posts since 11 Jun, 2004
this seems a little sillyIxox wrote:
Why don't you buy better effects separatly ?
I have today all the VST effects i need and I would hate to have to pay in T2 for effects i'll never use...
so even though you dont know what will be coming with T2 you already assume you will never use them
uuuuum
perhaps we should all just wait and see whats coming instead of deciding now that were not gonna use T2's add ons or features
oh im not dissing you Ixox just thought it was a very blinkered thing to say
love ya plug man(but the signature worries me-do you have something stuck in your eye
)cheers
I aint famous enough to be handin out signatures